Now the GAD M-20 . . .Enough already!

[california]

I'm not just talking about the cheapies, Martin is still making the multi-thousand $$$ guitars too, and people are lining up to buy them.

Even their cheapies sound pretty good, and if re-engineering is what needs to be done to retain American jobs, then my hat's off to Martin for figuring it out!

Actually, re-engineering takes them a step further by creating new jobs. It is doubtful that the same craftsman who dovetails necks on $8000 signature D-28s is bolting the composite neck on a $499 DX-1. Martin probably uses a totally different workforce for its low end instruments. While mechanization greatly reduces the number of people needed to build the cheaper guitars (and even expensive models, as Mark and I learned on the Taylor factory tour), continued sales means employing more workers in Pennsylvania.

 

[dreadnut]

Bingo. I have a friend who owns a business that supplies parts to the automotive industry, he has convinced them to pull some parts back here from the Pacific Rim. How? By being innovative with alternative materials and mechanization, he's been able to give them price reductions.

 

[Volt]

If I can surmise that all GAD series Guilds are made in China, or the like, then I suppose it could be loosely analogous that the GAD series is to Guild as Epiphone is to Gibson.
Guild's survival being paramount, if this philosophy works well then they (the China Guilds) can't be all bad.
Now they should get to work on possibly doing the same with Guild electrics, WHEN THEY BRING THEM BACK. :mrgreen:
American Guilds and "Gad" (zooks lol) Guilds. IF it is working well for Gibson and Epiphone, and Fender American and Fender imports, then......

Pardon if any of this has already been mentioned in this post, I usually always read all the previous posts before I post, but I just skimmed (because I'm Googling for a M-20) this time.

 

[kostask]

Thanks Kostas; apparently predatory business practices by competitors isn't the only reason businesses fail. Did Mr. Carter's book discuss labor issues in NY as a contributing factor in the demise of Epiphone? Thanks again. cj

CJ:

Excerpts from page 44 of the same book:

""The model that had topped the original Masterbilt line in 1931, the showcase of Epi quality, the model that had gone tot to toe with Gibson's legendary L5, was now a plywood guitar." (about the Zephyr Deluxe Regent)\

"While Epi continued on the course it had set in the prewar years, the guitar market changed courses. The postwar crowd did not pick back up on the Hawaiian guitar craze. Popular music was about to go through a revolution that would elevate the guitar higher than anyone had ever imagined, but not the kind of jazz guitar that Epiphone made. To make matters worse, the union was knocking at Epi's door, trying to organize the work force." (Italics are in the text of the book, not added by me)

"in the corporate boardroom at Epiphone, Orphie and Frixo were not getting along...."

I think the trend and sequence of events on this page show how basically the two brothers were at odds, and this allowed both the quality of existing guitars to decline, and really prevented Epiphone from developing anything comparable to the soon to emerge electric solidbodies (Broadcaster/Telecaster (and eventually, the electric basses and the Stratotcaster), or the Les Paul). With jazz becoming less prominent in post war years, and the electric bass making serious inroads into what was previously an upright bass's territory, Epiphone simply could NOT compete with its existing line up of archtops, and didn't have the money to spend on development.

Seen in this light, the GADs can be seen as the part that "brings in the bacon" to pay for development of the Contemporary Series, and anything new that will be built in the US.

Kostas

 

[danerectal]

Epiphone's web site actually chronicles their fall from American made greatness. :roll:

 

[capnjuan]

Hi Kostas; thank you. What's that old saying; "...sometimes the bear bites you..."? Just guessing and based on the remarks on our BB; for every new, high-end, Tacoma-built Guild bought by one of this bunch, 7 - 9 older / used / 'vintage' Guilds were bought on eBay / CL / GBase. There may have been more margin in the top line Tacomas but fewer sales and as you pointed out, something's gotta bring in some cash. Thanks again.

cj

 

[capnjuan]

Epiphone's web site actually chronicles their fall from American made greatness. :roll:

Thanks Dane: I'll go take a look. Reminiscent of Kaiser, Packhard, Studebaker and other US car mfrs that didn't survive the early post-war years. Every time I see one of those older big-box Epis, I start wanting to take jazz guitar lessons to justify taking the dive. cj

 

[kostask]

I've never bought the argument that you need to build your product offshore in order to compete with their cheap labor costs.

I hate to say it, but Martin seems to have it figured out...

In my opinion, the only people in North America that can deliver the same value as the Chinese can is Godin, with their various lines of acoustics. All of their guitars are made with solid wood necks, solid tops (except for the very lowest end Art and Lutherie), rosewood fingerboards, either a high quality laminate back and sides or solid wood back and sides, and use a lacquer finish. The HPL Martins are literally junk, and Martin should be ashamed of themselves for putting their name on the headstock of these guitars. In fact, if it weren't for the Martin logo on the headstock, you couldn't give these guitars away. Martin is sort of is embarrassed, which is why they only give a one year warranty on the HPL models, as opposed to the lifetime warranty on the traditional Martins. They sound good, for a couple of years or so, and then (note that the warranty has now expired) the problems will start; and yes, I have seen them first hand. Tailblock outlines poking through the top, top/side glue joints giving away, back splitting open, etc. All of these would have been covered by warranty on a traditional Martin, for life.

You cannot compete with the Chinese manufacturers by putting out junk, and slapping a famous name on it. You need to deliver real value at a price that people are willing to pay. The HPL Martins, to my mind don't do that; the various Godins do.

Kostas

 

[AfterDarkMusic]

I hate to say it, but Martin seems to have it figured out...

Yes -- but are formica fretboards and unfinished guitars really the answer? Some of those cheapie Martins make GADs look awfully good.

I think you hit the nail on the head. When I was questioning myself before (what to me was) a major purchase, taking a look at what I could get for the money from the other 'big names', they're precisely what made me spring for the GAD (which will be here Tuesday). In fact, in another thread on here I said something like "formica fingerboards? Really?"

edit

heres an excerpt with the pertinent quote in bold

I've played a huge number of Godin made guitars (S&P, A&L, Norman) and they've sounded awful, I've not played one that sounded good. Choked and dead, just really really bad. I've not been excited with anything else I've played in my price range. I was happy enough with one blue ridge I tried out, but I wasn't sold on it. The martins I've looked at in my price range have left me wanting more. HPL sides and back, micarta fingerboard... really?

 

[jckgrms]

You cannot compete with the Chinese manufacturers by putting out junk,

Especially when the chinese are actually making something that has quality (GAD's). I bought two Guilds last year, a GAD-50 and a Tacoma built D-40. I was very impressed with the workmanship on the GAD. Every part of it looked meticulously crafted and it is the easiest playing guitar I have ever played. It's the first time I have ever been impressed by anything made in China. Of course I'll have to see how it holds up over time - or my dad will I gave it to him for christmas. As a direct result of that experience I bought an american made D-50 reasoning that if the chinese one was so good the american version had to be even better.

 

[dayuhan]

Epiphone was never a high quality guitar like a Guild so I don't mind that they are made in China.

Not so sure about that... I had one of these once upon a time, and it was a pretty nice guitar. Not as nice as my Guild of course, but nice!

 

[JerryR]

Heck of a lot nicer than my 1980 (made in Japan) Texan - which has been greatly improved by a luthier :mrgreen:

 

[capnjuan]

.. Epiphone was never a high quality guitar like a Guild so I don't mind that they are made in China...

Hi Volt; before and after WW2, Epiphone competed with Vega, Stromberg, and other instrument makers and produced some pretty fine guitars, for example: 1949 Epi, seller asking $3,100 or so.

eBay Epi In some respects during those years, Epiphone was in the same position viz Gibson as Guild was in the 50s and 60s viz Gibson with its big-body archtops and Guild viz Martin in the 60s and 70s in flat-top guitars; somebody making good-quality guitars and selling them for less than the Big Guy.

 

[danerectal]

I just remembered in the intro to Hans' book, he made mention of several Epiphone workers being employed by Guild after Epi's collapse into Gibson.

 

[capnjuan]

I just remembered in the intro to Hans' book, he made mention of several Epiphone workers being employed by Guild after Epi's collapse into Gibson.

Helps explain the high quality standards Guild was able to achieve with the big jazz boxes. I realize that Hans' pictures flatters these guitars to death but to my eye, they all look like one-off pieces of art.