Now the GAD M-20 . . .Enough already!

[Metalman]

Okay; the GAD M-20 put me over the edge on this subject.

Guild is bringing back all the classic small guitars like the F-30R, F-20, D-212, nylon-stringed Mark series, and now the M-20, but in their China shop, not the Tacoma factory!

What is with these half measures?! Having these great old guitars made in China means we will never see them made to the standards of yesteryear, namely, a Westerly remake.

Are they priming us to accept the GAD line as the only Guild line for the future? And with the move to Conn., does that mean an end to quality American-made Guilds?

Are they going the way of the old Epiphones. Hey, matter of fact, that is how Guild got started. Maybe that is the way they will end.

Sad.

It just makes the Westerly Guilds all the more desirable. The last of a pure breed!

 

[Jahn]

Well, we sorta don't have a choice at the moment, since there is no more Tacoma factory for Guild. It's all chinese for now until the east coast Ovation factory gets tooled up for Guilds.

 

[capnjuan]

Hi Dennis: sad and true. Unfortunately for us, FMIC isn't run by the the Leo Fenders/Al Dronges Engineers/Entrepreneurs of the world; it's run by bean-counting MBAs. I don't know how many times ownership of FMIC turned over after CBS sold it but to maximize the value of the Fender name and reputation and overcome unprofitable hit-and-miss new product rollouts, it began 'reissuing' a number of its classic designs: (dates from Fender Amps, Teague and Sprung)

Twin 1987
Super 1988
Vibroverb and Bassman 1990
Concert 1993
Deluxe 1994
Virbrasonic and Vibrolux 1995

My understanding is that FMIC bought into Guild sometime in the mid 90s and not too long thereafter they re-issued the S-100, at least some of the Starfires, and later on the F412s/F512s reappeared too. S'what they do - they re-issue. I guess the M-20 got caught in a line change ...

 

[Graham]

It would sure be nice to see these GAD reproductions lead to a call for more American based production.

 

[dpicker]

I think we better get use to the GAD. look at there catalog, The number of GADs is over whelming.. Thank god i have my GA4 Taylor.

 

[Tim]

It would sure be nice to see these GAD reproductions lead to a call for more American based production.

That would be nice...however i fear it would be the other way around.

Tim.

 

[Volt]

My very first guitar at age seven was a Guild M-20. I am sort of a Guild snob. Seems blasphemous (to me) to do a re-issue of an American made guitar that is made in China. Guilds to my knowledge have always been quality American made guitars. Let's keep it that way.

I would love for Guild to get back into the electric guitar business to add to their line of acoustics. I don't understand how a company can thrive selling only acoustics. I own four electric guitars and am looking to buy a fifth (and hopefully final) electric - a deep-body jazz type guitar. I own only one acoustic guitar and am not looking to buy a second. One is enough. It does what I want. It sounds the way I like an acoustic to sound.

You may notice in my sig that I own two made in China Epiphones. Admittedly their overall quality is not the best, but I wanted a non-used Les Paul type guitar and a ES-335 type guitar. So it's either pay $2000+ each for a Gibson, or $400 each for the Epiphones. I would love to have been able to buy those types of guitars from Guild, but, I wouldn't even buy a Guild for $2000 a pop. $1000 would be a go.
Epiphone was never a high quality guitar like a Guild so I don't mind that they are made in China. With Guild, to me, it's personal.
Unfortunately though, how does the U.S. compete with China? Seems like everything is being imported from there. :x

 

[AfterDarkMusic]

My very first guitar at age seven was a Guild M-20. I am sort of a Guild snob. Seems blasphemous (to me) to do a re-issue of an American made guitar that is made in China. Guilds to my knowledge have always been quality American made guitars. Let's keep it that way.

You wanna know why it can't be kept that way?

You may notice in my sig that I own two made in China Epiphones. Admittedly their overall quality is not the best, but I wanted a non-used Les Paul type guitar and a ES-335 type guitar. So it's either pay $2000+ each for a Gibson, or $400 each for the Epiphones. I would love to have been able to buy those types of guitars from Guild, but, I wouldn't even buy a Guild for $2000 a pop. $1000 would be a go.

 

[Jeff]

:wink:

 

[Volt]

You forgot to quote this part.........
"Unfortunately though, how does the U.S. compete with China?"

:wink:

 

[Jahn]

"Epiphone was never a high quality guitar like a Guild so I don't mind that they are made in China."

Actually we should shed a tear for Epiphone too - or more accurately, so many tears have been shed that there are none left. Epiphone used to be its very own USA company, with the kind of high quality that made Gibson shake in its Kalamazoo booties. So what did Gibson do about it? They bought them out! In fact, that's how Guild got a good jump start - the majority of the original Guild employees were from the old Epiphone company!

And then Gibson commenced crapping on Epiphone. Making them their B-line. Then shipping production overseas. And now decades later, folks think that it's always been that way, as if it was the Squier line of Fender.

UHOH. You don't think Guild is going to become the "Acoustic Squier" line for Fender, do you? Argh!

 

[Default]

And don't forget, most of the earlier Guild employees were Epiphone employees, and most of the early designs were influenced by Epiphone.
I would love to buy a brand new Starfire 4-5-6. Of course, I would end up selling the CG and the Strat to pay for it, but what's better, something you'll play all the time or a bunch of guitars that sit in the cases most of the time?

 

[capnjuan]

... Actually we should shed a tear for Epiphone too ...

and Vega, Regal, Kay, Stromberg ....

1948 NY Epiphone on eBay:

 

[kostask]

"Epiphone was never a high quality guitar like a Guild so I don't mind that they are made in China."

Actually we should shed a tear for Epiphone too - or more accurately, so many tears have been shed that there are none left. Epiphone used to be its very own USA company, with the kind of high quality that made Gibson shake in its Kalamazoo booties. So what did Gibson do about it? They bought them out! In fact, that's how Guild got a good jump start - the majority of the original Guild employees were from the old Epiphone company!

And then Gibson commenced crapping on Epiphone. Making them their B-line. Then shipping production overseas. And now decades later, folks think that it's always been that way, as if it was the Squier line of Fender.

UHOH. You don't think Guild is going to become the "Acoustic Squier" line for Fender, do you? Argh!

Reality was that Epiphone that was bought out by Gibson was a shadow of its former self. After the death of Epi Stathopoulos, his brothers (Frixo and Orphie) pretty much ran the company into the ground. At the time of the buyout, Epiphone had stopped building guitars in any sort of volume, and were pretty much just building upright basses. Ted McCarty (enginner and guitar designer, originally, who rose to run Gibson) is the one who bought Epiphone from Orphie, for $20K. If Gibson had not bought Epiphone, they would have disappeared. Gibson had a standing offer to buy Epiphone, Orphie made the decision to sell, as he knew that he couldn't make a go of it any more.

Epiphone created its own demise, it wasn't big; bad Gibson who destroyed them. They saw an opportunity to add upright basses (Gibson couldn't produce good basses back then, arguably, they still can't) at a low cost to themselves, and took it. It was business. Gibson did end up getting the short end of the stick, as it turns out that what was left of Epiphone couldn't really build basses very well, either, so they messed around with the "B" line marketing idea, and eventually sent the line offshore. I can't say that I like what they did with Epiphone in sending it offshore, and I really don't like Gibson as a company in anyway, but the truth is Gibson is not the bad guy here, it is the Frixo and Orphie who ran the company into the ground.

Also, while Epiphone may be marketed as the "poor relation", some of their guitars, like the Elitist/Elite models are as good as, or in many cases, much better than anything that Gibson made, and that is a straight overall quality/tone comparison, price not even entering into it.

Kostas

P.S. All of the above comes from a book called "Epiphone The Complete HIstory" by Walter Carter, published by Hal Leonard. ISBN 0-7935-4203-0. While the copyright is held by Epiphone Corporation (ie. Gibson), I think that Walter Carter is sufficiently independant to believe that the account of how Epiphone was sold to Gibson to be fairly accurate.

 

[Jeff]

Reality was that Epiphone that was bought out by Gibson was a shadow of its former self. After the death of Epi Stathopoulos, his brothers (Frixo and Orphie) pretty much ran the company into the ground. At the time of the buyout, Epiphone had stopped building guitars in any sort of volume, and were pretty much just building upright basses. Ted McCarty (enginner and guitar designer, originally, who rose to run Gibson) is the one who bought Epiphone from Orphie, for $20K. If Gibson had not bought Epiphone, they would have disappeared. Gibson had a standing offer to buy Epiphone, Orphie made the decision to sell, as he knew that he couldn't make a go of it any more.

Epiphone created its own demise, it wasn't big; bad Gibson who destroyed them. They saw an opportunity to add upright basses (Gibson couldn't produce good basses back then, arguably, they still can't) at a low cost to themselves, and took it. It was business. Gibson did end up getting the short end of the stick, as it turns out that what was left of Epiphone couldn't really build basses very well, either, so they messed around with the "B" line marketing idea, and eventually sent the line offshore. I can't say that I like what they did with Epiphone in sending it offshore, and I really don't like Gibson as a company in anyway, but the truth is Gibson is not the bad guy here, it is the Frixo and Orphie who ran the company into the ground.

Also, while Epiphone may be marketed as the "poor relation", some of their guitars, like the Elitist/Elite models are as good as, or in many cases, much better than anything that Gibson made, and that is a straight overall quality/tone comparison, price not even entering into it.

Makings of a good blues tune in this tale,aye.

Pretty much all there, just needs to be arranged in verses & embellished a bit. Tune could be titled: the "Ballad of Frixo & Orphie When Epi Died"

I'd do it except I'm busy working on another tune.

 

[capnjuan]

Thanks Kostas; apparently predatory business practices by competitors isn't the only reason businesses fail. Did Mr. Carter's book discuss labor issues in NY as a contributing factor in the demise of Epiphone? Thanks again. cj

 

[california]

I would love for Guild to get back into the electric guitar business to add to their line of acoustics. I don't understand how a company can thrive selling only acoustics. I own four electric guitars and am looking to buy a fifth (and hopefully final) electric - a deep-body jazz type guitar. I own only one acoustic guitar and am not looking to buy a second. One is enough. It does what I want. It sounds the way I like an acoustic to sound.

According to Taylor, the T5 now the #1 selling hollow body in America; it outsells the ES335, and it has only been in production since 2005. Guild was making deep-body jazz boxes and Bluesbirds in Corona through around 2002 (someone correct me if I'm wrong), which was a no brainer for them in a factory geared for producing electrics. Not only would electrics help the bottom line, but the visibility on CD covers, music videos, stage performances, etc. would help all sales. How many Takamines of all kinds do you think were sold after seeing that box with the swiss cheese top last week on the Oscars?

 

[dreadnut]

I've never bought the argument that you need to build your product offshore in order to compete with their cheap labor costs.

I hate to say it, but Martin seems to have it figured out...

 

[california]

I hate to say it, but Martin seems to have it figured out...

Yes -- but are formica fretboards and unfinished guitars really the answer? Some of those cheapie Martins make GADs look awfully good.

 

[dreadnut]

I'm not just talking about the cheapies, Martin is still making the multi-thousand $$$ guitars too, and people are lining up to buy them.

Even their cheapies sound pretty good, and if re-engineering is what needs to be done to retain American jobs, then my hat's off to Martin for figuring it out!