Newbie needs help with a 1954 x375

[Heinz W]

Hi all, I'm new here and have not had much experience with Guild's. I'm more of a solid-body guy in general but I dig old archtops too. Came across a late 1954 x375 at one of my customer's and am curious as to the value. The lady wants to sell it but I have no idea what a fair price is for both of us.

Apparently this guitar was owned by a guy named E.M. Harris, who played with Funkadelic in the 60's. He recently passed and left two guitars to this lady, who was his nurse. This beautiful Guild is one and the other is what I believe to be a pre-CBS Stratocaster (haven't seen this one yet, it's in storage and she couldn't get to it!).

This x375 is serial no. 1513, which as mentioned puts it at late '54. It's in pretty good condition except for some loose binding on the back and missing binding on the bottom of the fretboard. If anyone here can help me determine a mutually fair price I will let her know. I've already spent a lot of money on gear this year so if the price is too high for me I'll gladly pass it along to someone here who would appreciate such a fine guitar. Plus, I'm really interested in the old Strat as you can imagine. Thanks to all.

Here are a few pics, I can get more if anyone needs a particular shot or close-up.

[img:1024:768]http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w39/_heinz_W/IMG_0249.jpg[/img]

[img:768:1024]http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w39/_heinz_W/IMG_0247.jpg[/img]

[img:1024:768]http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w39/_heinz_W/IMG_0243.jpg[/img]
[IMG:1024:768]http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w39/_heinz_W/IMG_0255.jpg[/img]
[img:1024:768]http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w39/_heinz_W/IMG_0252.jpg[/img]

 

[Jake The Loafer]

8) Hi Heinz, I see you made it here. I believe you will get some answers to your needs soon.

 

[thehenderson]

Hehe, the Guild Forum FDP crowd

It's good to have both

 

[Graham]

Hehe, the Guild Forum FDP crowd

It's good to have both

There are a few of us that are no longer welcome at FDP.

 

[jp]

Hey there Heinz and welcome to the forum.

What a beauty of an axe! Perhaps you've seen this similar '53 currently for sale:

http://www.williesguitars.com/index.cfm ... prodID=754

If I had to hazard a completely uneducated guess. . .
and because it's a private sale vs. a dealer. . .
and because of the binding issues. . .
my guess would be between $2150-$2350.

I'm guessing a pro luthier would maybe charge $300-400 for a proper binding repair. I think a fair private sale price in that condition might be tops $2750.

Whadda ya think, gang? Does this sound ludicrous? They're definitely not something one sees everyday, though.

 

[northbayj]

Your numbers sound eminently reasonable, JP.

 

[Jake The Loafer]

Hey there Heinz and welcome to the forum.

What a beauty of an axe! Perhaps you've seen this similar '53 currently for sale:

http://www.williesguitars.com/index.cfm ... prodID=754

If I had to hazard a completely uneducated guess. . .
and because it's a private sale vs. a dealer. . .
and because of the binding issues. . .
my guess would be between $2150-$2350.

I'm guessing a pro luthier would maybe charge $300-400 for a proper binding repair. I think a fair private sale price in that condition might be tops $2750.

Whadda ya think, gang? Does this sound ludicrous? They're definitely not something one sees everyday, though.

Is this the correct tailpiece for this Guitar? :?

 

[gilded]

That's a cool looking guitar, but I'd like to point something out for everybody's consideration.

It may just be a trick of the camera angle, or decades of dust, or old eyes, or something, but it would seem that the neck has come loose in the body.

Look at the join of the treble side of the neck and the side. There appears to be a large gap at the base of the heel, that narrows as the neck reaches the upper edge area.

As well, while the pictures do not actually show how high the bridge top is off of the bridge base, it sure doesn't look like the bridge is very high off of the top. In fact, the adjustment wheel spacers may be sitting right on top of the base, a sign that the neck set may have popped loose.

It's just a thought, but I'd sure like to see some more pics before
I turned loose of some cash.

Another thing, I've never met a guitar repairman who had anything other than hatred for the job of replacing binding on a finished guitar.
Why? Binding isn't uniform in thickness and the route on the body isn't uniform in depth, either. It's one those jobs that you do after the
guitar is built, but before the finish goes on. So, after-the-fact, it's a labor-intensive task that takes lots of concentration. One mistake and
you've scraped off a big patch of finish, or the glue has eaten into the finish, etc.

Finally, just on general principles, anytime I see loose binding like that, I look for the cause. Did the guitar take a hit? Did it get too hot? My guess would be heat and that could mean the guitar has other problems, too.

I would look at the arc of the top of the guitar and make sure that the laminate top hasn't settled too much. A good way with pics is to get an angle that shows whether the inner side of the f-hole is sitting lower than it should in relation to the outer side of the f-hole. There's a '54 or '55 X-500 the next town over that is suffering from a significantly sunken top.
FWIW, my guess would be that it got......too hot. Was the binding coming loose? Oh, yeah.

Heinz, you might want to have a good luthier take a look at it.

Good luck.

 

[jp]

All very good points, gilded.

My guestimate, Heinz, is assuming there are no other issues with the guitar. And gilded is right about the binding and luthiers. It's extremely difficult to pull off an "aged" or "relic-ed" look when trying to match binding, so finding a willing pro may be an issue.

If the next needs a costly reset, hack at least a couple hundred off, but if you can't properly assess yourself, take it to a luthier.

Good luck!

 

[Heinz W]

Thanks for the help guys. Yes it does appear that the neck joint is out of alignment. I don't think I want this guitar since it has those issues. If anyone here is interested in buying it let me know, or if anyone can suggest a price given the issues I'd also like to know that so I can tell the lady what a fair price would be. I may just suggest she have Gruhn's do an appraisal and be done with it if nobody here can help.

Thanks again for the opinions.

 

[gilded]

Heinz,

The neck doesn't bother me, the binding doesn't phase me; that's just money. A significant amount of money, but just money.

The real thing is whether the guitar got hot and the top has sunk.

Most laminate tops tend to sink a little with string pressure. When the guitar gets hot from being stored in an attic or left in a car, etc., the glues loosens up and the top deforms. When the high temperature goes away, the glue solidifies again and the top is caught in a deformed position by the glue. Over time, the top learns to 'stay' that way
and doesn't want to go back.

You can fix 'em a little bit, with a combination of heat, moisture and a pressure jack inside the body, but they never go all the way back.

Here's a good article on a related problem, a Gibson 175 with a sinking top caused
by a loose/broken top brace:

http://www.frets.com/FRETSPages/Luthier ... 75top.html

Look at the pictures. They will tell you what to look for on the X-375.

Remember, bridges usually go 'up' when the top sinks, but since this guitar has a loose neck, the bridge has to adjust 'down' anyway, so you can't really look to bridge height for the definitive answer. You're gonna have to eyeball the arc of the top. In between the bridge and the neck is the trouble area, especially when you have holes for three pickups in one small area.

I think the guitar repaired is worth around $2200.
I'm basing this on the fact that Willie's Guitar price of $3250 (for their X-375) is 20% optimistic; their guitar should be $2750. Since the repair on the nurse's guitar will never be invisible, I think that drops the price to the $2200 range.

So, the real issue is the cost of repair. I figure it to be about $750 to $1,000 with a sunken top. The variable would be the condition of the neck block. How so?

Well, if I guessed wrong about the cause of the neck being loose and the neck block was cracked/loose because the guitar had taken a 'hit', the back would have to come off and I'd be looking at a $1000 on the repair (neck reset, back removal/reinstall for block repair, binding replacement, top correction, etc.).

So, $2200 minus $1,000 is $1200, right? And, minus $750 is $1450, correct? If somebody wanted the guitar to keep, then it should be worth between$1,000 to $1,500 to them.

On a valuation by Gruhn's guitar, the problem is they only want about 4-6 pictures, so you won't be able to show the problems with the guitar (you barely have enough photos to show the good things!). Accordingly, their valuation will be skewed.

I like Gruhn's pricing and I think they are as close to the 'national retail' as anyone. I wound up selling a '52 Esquire for a guy a few months ago and I had him send some pics to Gruhn's. Their appraisal was a good starting point for negotiations with the eventual buyer. However, I don't think they would be able to judge the repair costs accurately based on pictures.

Having said all that, if I were you, I would see if you could locate a good guitar repair guy who is familiar with archtop instruments and see what needs fixin' on this very cool guitar.

Again, good luck.

 

[Heinz W]

Thanks gilded, your advice sounds very reasonable. I'll be going back to the lady's house when they get the Stratocaster out and I will look at the x375 again, and take some angled shots of the top to try and determine whether it has sunk any.

Heat may indeed be the culprit as I believe she's kept the guitar in a storage bin. I'll tell her not to take it back there, extreme heat or cold is NOT good for any instrument.

 

[Darryl Hattenhauer]

Heinz,

Pardon my late response. I'm behind and trying to ketchup.

The Vintage Guitar Price Guide lists those at $2,700-$3,100.

 

[Guildmark]

Heinz,

Pardon my late response. I'm behind and trying to ketchup.

You mustard got delayed.

 

[Darryl Hattenhauer]

At the Mayo clinic.

 

[Guildmark]

Ha! I always relish your jokes, Dr. Hat An Hour!

 

[Darryl Hattenhauer]

Speaking of which, here's a joke from my high school picking buddy (not just guitars but also zits.)

"Did you know that Darryl's mom used to work in a hat factory? She made a hat an hour."

 

[Heinz W]

Heinz,

Pardon my late response. I'm behind and trying to ketchup.

The Vintage Guitar Price Guide lists those at $2,700-$3,100.

Ah, the latecomer is a punny guy! :wink:

Thanks Darryl, so what's a good guess considering the issues?

 

[Darryl Hattenhauer]

I wish I had a good answer. On the one hand, I think the listing is suspicious, and that might hold down the bids. On the other hand, this is rare, so that might really inflate the bids.

I haven't totally ruled out bidding on it, but this one might not sound as good as my 512. And if this one has structural problems, I couldn't ethically sell it without saying so, in which case I'd lose my shirt. (My green Guild shirt).

My guess is that some rich cat for whom money is no object will take a chance and bid very high. I suspect that's what the seller is counting on and has set a very high reserve. He can always come down later.

 

[Heinz W]

She never mentioned putting it on ebay, and she told me she'd hold it for me. I'm going to be honest with her about the value. If it's worth between $2-3000 then that's what I'll tell her. I'll also tell her that the issues could bring it closer to 2. Maybe I should just tell her to put it on the 'bay and start the bidding at 2.

Whaddya think? Reasonable?