New star fire 1 bass

Minnesota Flats

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As good as it sounds, I think the split pickup looks silly on this bass

I agree: the bridge, tailpiece and pups look "wrong" and, to my eye, the pup frames have a tacky quality to them. In addition, I prefer an unbound neck. But though I tend to place an inordinate amount of value on physical appearances, I also feel that the sound should be the over-riding consideration. If I were to buy one, it would be for the sound, because I already have the Bi-Sonic and Guild-Bucker bases/basses covered.
 

mellowgerman

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Regarding the new Bisonic pickups, it's a great single coil. I think there's nothing wrong with them and they definitely look the part, but they don't sound much like original Bisonics (or Hammon DarkStar pickups for that matter). I think expecting them to mass-produce an authentic Bisonic overseas within the budget required for the import line is just unrealistic, as there are some less-common wire gauges and magnets involved. So they probably did the best they could and the result was a nice pickup, just has it's own kind of vibe.
The Novak BS/DS is the most accurate recreation I've found and the coil tap feature is totally worth the upcharge if you ask me. I love having the DarkStar tone at the flip of a switch (or push/pull of a pot). Some have noted that they feel like the DarkStar just makes the pickup quieter and thinner sounding, but the trick is to bump up the pregain on your amp to match the output of the Bisonic mode, then you've got a much more responsive, glassy tone.
Important to note, the original "DarkStar" pickup made by Fred Hammon was a kind of recreation of the original Hagstrom Bisonic, but modified to sound as much as possible to the modified Bisonic pickups that Jack Casady and Phil Lesh had in the 60's/70's. This is why they're wound to a lower resistance/impedance in comparison to the original Hagstrom Bisonic spec. All great designs but it's key to understand the differences and how to work with them!
 

Matt R.

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Regarding the new Bisonic pickups, it's a great single coil. I think there's nothing wrong with them and they definitely look the part, but they don't sound much like original Bisonics (or Hammon DarkStar pickups for that matter). I think expecting them to mass-produce an authentic Bisonic overseas within the budget required for the import line is just unrealistic, as there are some less-common wire gauges and magnets involved. So they probably did the best they could and the result was a nice pickup, just has it's own kind of vibe.
The Novak BS/DS is the most accurate recreation I've found and the coil tap feature is totally worth the upcharge if you ask me. I love having the DarkStar tone at the flip of a switch (or push/pull of a pot). Some have noted that they feel like the DarkStar just makes the pickup quieter and thinner sounding, but the trick is to bump up the pregain on your amp to match the output of the Bisonic mode, then you've got a much more responsive, glassy tone.
Important to note, the original "DarkStar" pickup made by Fred Hammon was a kind of recreation of the original Hagstrom Bisonic, but modified to sound as much as possible to the modified Bisonic pickups that Jack Casady and Phil Lesh had in the 60's/70's. This is why they're wound to a lower resistance/impedance in comparison to the original Hagstrom Bisonic spec. All great designs but it's key to understand the differences and how to work with them!

Thanks for that! I had a darkstar in a PBass once a long time ago. Loved it. I’m ok with the new Guild pickup not being a faithful recreation of the vintage ones. This is my first Guild Bass, so I don’t really have a frame of reference anyway. As long as it’s a good sounding, quality pickup, I’ll be stoked. I appreciate the detailed response :cool:
 

mellowgerman

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Thanks for that! I had a darkstar in a PBass once a long time ago. Loved it. I’m ok with the new Guild pickup not being a faithful recreation of the vintage ones. This is my first Guild Bass, so I don’t really have a frame of reference anyway. As long as it’s a good sounding, quality pickup, I’ll be stoked. I appreciate the detailed response :cool:

Yeah, definitely a fine single coil pickup! Here's a nice comparison video that Serek does since they offer both the Guild reissue and the Novak in their basses. Of course, the tone here also reflects his amp and the bass itself, but it shows you the basic difference between the pickups. I have a Serek Midwestern bass with the Novak and coil tap. Fantastic little bass! (though nothing beats the old Starfire)

 

fronobulax

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Any thoughts good or bad on the modern Bisonics?

Welcome.

It is much more fun to repeat myself and inflict my opinions on everyone else again than to find where I have expressed them before.

I have a vintage Bisonic in a '67 Starfire, a Novak BSDS with coil tap in a custom built solid body and the new Bisonic in a Newark Street Starfire. For the vaguely defined quality "sounds like a Bisonic" that is the order I would rank them in. The differences are slight but noticeable. All of them have more in common with each other than they do with the P and J style PUs in the Pilot or the Guild humbuckers in the JS II.

If you are not already searching for a particular Bisonic sound you might as well start with the new one. There is an obvious upgrade path if you ever need to go that way.
 

mellowgerman

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Here's another new demo on the tube. Doesn't sound like a vintage Starfire, but good-sounding bass none the less. Nice playing too.

"Guild Starfire 1 Bass into Valeton coral Looper into IK Multimedia Z- Tone Direct Box into Soundcraft Signature 22MTK Console into Protools 12"

 

lungimsam

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Sounds better than mine!! Mine has always sounded muffled. This one sounds present and clear. Are the new ones mahogany, or something else?
 

mellowgerman

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Sounds better than mine!! Mine has always sounded muffled. This one sounds present and clear. Are the new ones mahogany, or something else?

My guess is the biggest differences between your NS bass and this particular demo of the new model are (A.) a drastically different pickup, (B.) different strings, and (C.) whatever various coloration and EQ is going on in this fella's signal chain.
Also, keep in mind that there are actual structural differences; the neck is set back farther into the body on the new models and the bridge is completely different.

The thing is, regarding tonewood discussion, they list the Walnut finish's top wood as being "arched maple" and the Cherry finish's top wood as "arched mahogany" but they are all laminate either way, so regardless of what thin slice of wood is directly under the finish, I believe they are all the same sandwich of various layers underneath that -- unless they really do a bunch of layers of whatever wood is specified, but even then I wouldn't expect any drastic difference or consistent tone characteristic (as you might with a solid-top acoustic) since the pores and grain patterns of all those layers won't be lined up and interwoven anyway.
Having played and owned a number of vintage Starfires (both mahogany and maple, though still laminate as far as I understand), there was no stand-out tonewood characteristic of note. Somebody suggested recently that the biggest tonewood factors in these basses might be what the center block and neck pieces are, since those are more substantial solid pieces of wood, not to mention, the actual thickness of the pieces used to construct the necks have varied a bit as well.
I will be getting the sunburst "maple" Starfire bass back this Summer actually, so maybe then I'll try to look more into ways to test potential tonewood differences, though I'm not expecting much will be revealed.
 
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fronobulax

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but even then I wouldn't expect any drastic difference or consistent tone characteristic

mgod might take exception if the discussion is limited to pre-1970 Starfires. IIRC he can hear a difference and thinks the maple is brighter. The relevance of this comment may depend upon the similarity of construction materials and techniques between the vintage basses and the 21st Century ones.
 

mellowgerman

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mgod might take exception if the discussion is limited to pre-1970 Starfires. IIRC he can hear a difference and thinks the maple is brighter. The relevance of this comment may depend upon the similarity of construction materials and techniques between the vintage basses and the 21st Century ones.

I understand that maple is generally expected to have a relatively bright tone, clear attack and quicker note decay, but in my experience these characteristics are most noticeable in acoustic or hollow body instruments in which solid wood is used. I've also noticed these characteristics in solid body guitars but in a more subtle way. So if there were two Starfire basses that were identical in all ways except tonewoods, I would suspect the main source of any notable tone differences to come from the center block and neck, not the laminated top, back and sides.
As mentioned earlier, there were also differences in how the necks were constructed aside from the tonewoods used. The specific variations I've seen have not been committed to memory in extensive detail, as that's not a factor I ever put great focus on over the years, but I do have general recollection. It seems that the most common method was two main pieces with a thin center strip sandwiched in between (typically mahogany/maple/mahogany on basses with a mahogany body). That said, we've also seen examples where the neck is made up of three equal (or nearly equal) pieces, as well as a few single-piece solid necks. While on the topic of neck structure and tonewoods, Casady's first Starfire was maple/walnut/maple.
Certainly not questioning what mgod has heard in his extensive experience, but I can only report on my own findings. Maybe the maple basses I've owned and played were made of particularly dark-sounding examples of the wood or perhaps my mahogany 1970 Starfire which I've had the most in depth, continuous study-and-play experience with, is made of particularly bright-sounding mahogany. Since every single piece of wood varies in it's resonant properties (even within a particular species of wood), it's hard to rule out unintentional bias and outliers.
 

fronobulax

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I understand that maple is generally expected to have a relatively bright tone, clear attack and quicker note decay, but in my experience these characteristics are most noticeable in acoustic or hollow body instruments in which solid wood is used. I've also noticed these characteristics in solid body guitars but in a more subtle way. So if there were two Starfire basses that were identical in all ways except tonewoods, I would suspect the main source of any notable tone differences to come from the center block and neck, not the laminated top, back and sides.
As mentioned earlier, there were also differences in how the necks were constructed aside from the tonewoods used. The specific variations I've seen have not been committed to memory in extensive detail, as that's not a factor I ever put great focus on over the years, but I do have general recollection. It seems that the most common method was two main pieces with a thin center strip sandwiched in between (typically mahogany/maple/mahogany on basses with a mahogany body). That said, we've also seen examples where the neck is made up of three equal (or nearly equal) pieces, as well as a few single-piece solid necks. While on the topic of neck structure and tonewoods, Casady's first Starfire was maple/walnut/maple.
Certainly not questioning what mgod has heard in his extensive experience, but I can only report on my own findings. Maybe the maple basses I've owned and played were made of particularly dark-sounding examples of the wood or perhaps my mahogany 1970 Starfire which I've had the most in depth, continuous study-and-play experience with, is made of particularly bright-sounding mahogany. Since every single piece of wood varies in it's resonant properties (even within a particular species of wood), it's hard to rule out unintentional bias and outliers.

I think you are overthinking this :)
 

mellowgerman

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I think you are overthinking this :)

No doubt! When it comes to Guild Starfire basses, that's inherently my approach 😁

I just don't want Lungimsam to fault his bass for being made of mahogany. It's certainly possible that it's just a dull piece of mahogany, but you can get that with maple or any other type of wood too. Main point being that I think there are many other factors that are far more likely to be the cause of the difference in sound between that particular demo of the new Starfire model and his NS Starfire. Would hate for anyone to go through the trouble of making significant bass-roster changes based on less-likely causes of undesirable characteristics.

It's just that I've experienced super drastic resonant differences between identically spec'd basses, so I feel that generalizations about something with such a wide range of variation like tonewood are often relied upon too heavily -- especially when it comes to laminate construction on an electric instrument. Would hate for somebody to miss out on an opportunity to acquire their ultimate-dream-tone-generating Starfire just because they are dead-set on one tonewood and had completely ruled out another.
 
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lungimsam

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It could be pup placement too. That midway position between a neck and bridge pup. My Pbass and Gibson DCLP bass are super bright and both have that type single pup placement in middle between neck and bridge.
My 4003 and Sfire and SG bass more dull. They have the neck and/or bridge pup placement only. So I agree there are multiple things at play here.
 

mellowgerman

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It could be pup placement too. That midway position between a neck and bridge pup. My Pbass and Gibson DCLP bass are super bright and both have that type single pup placement in middle between neck and bridge.
My 4003 and Sfire and SG bass more dull. They have the neck and/or bridge pup placement only. So I agree there are multiple things at play here.

Have you played around with rotating the Bisonic 180 degrees? It only moves the poles of the pickup a small amount, but it can make a noticeable difference. In the past I would mostly do this on basses with 2 pickups, for the purpose of influencing the inherent mid-scoop you get when running 2 pickups simultaneously, in parallel. With single pickup basses I typically found the difference to be minimal, though still worth while for a nit-picky player like myself. That thinking changed a bit when I got my Serek Midwestern, which has a single Novak BS/DS in the middle position. When I first got the bass, I liked it a lot (especially blown away by the playability and comfort of it), but there was a bit of boxy dullness to the tone that I wasn't expecting - a notable low mid emphasis of sorts. It wasn't necessarily good or bad, and I was sure it would find it's place in the context of certain songs, so I didn't think any more into it than that. A couple of weeks later, I decided to rotate the pickup just to see what the results would be and I was surprised to see how much of a difference it made. The bass kind of came to life, much punchier and tighter sounding than before, plus the notes up and down the neck sounded more even to my ears. Seems to me to be more support for the argument that every piece of wood is different than the next and that on any given bass, certain frequencies will pop and stand out more based on the unique structure of the fibers and grain of the wood. I mean Serek is a true master, boutique builder and he designs his basses a very particular way, presumably based on what he has found to yield the best results in years of tests and prototypes. As far as I've seen, I believe all his Midwesterns with the single middle Bisonic come out of his shop with the poles toward the neck. In the case of my Midwestern though, I really believe that rotating the pickup optimized the sound of this bass. Not just in a tone preference sort of way but in overall efficiency and performance. I don't think there's a live or recorded mix in which I would want the pickup flipped back the other way.
If nothing else, just another fun and free experiment that might be worth trying out on any Bisonic equipped bass.
 
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lungimsam

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Yes I flipped the bisonic and it did help. I eventually moved to a hum bucker for other reasons,
yet the core voice of the instrument has not changed.
 
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fronobulax

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The physics of a vibrating string can explain a lot and I'd argue that is exactly what explains the change of tone from flipping a pickup in a particular bass.
 

mellowgerman

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Yes I flipped the bisonic and it did help. I eventually moved to a hum bucker for other reasons,
yet the core voice of the instrument has not changed.

Interesting. What humbucker did you install? Sorry if this has been mentioned already, I remember the discussion leading up to it but I can't seem to recall the final outcome
 

lungimsam

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Ric HB1. I like it better than the bisonic. My NS bisonic was a junky, noisy pickup. It was pre-cordoba.
 

mellowgerman

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Ric HB1. I like it better than the bisonic. My NS bisonic was a junky, noisy pickup. It was pre-cordoba.

Very cool. Do you have it wired in regular series? Any switching options like single-coil or series/parallel? Also, if you have a photo, would love to see what the finished product looks like!
 
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