Musicianship

[Rich Cohen]

Here's my experience with musicianship. Often, as I am playing my Guild(s), I am trying to move through various songs, riffs, trying to change up the way I play the songs, and search for "new" riffs. Nothing new here, we all do it. I've been playing instruments from third grade, maybe I was 9 or 10. At that time I didn't appreciate my teacher, my parents' encouragement, it was mostly a slog for me. I did enjoy learning and playing the clarinet in an orchestra and band, and when I moved to the bass clarinet, it was an ego rush because the instrument was rare, and no one else could play it. Anyway, when I was 12 I inherited a Martin nylon guitar from my sister, and taught myself to play it. I've never had lessons on the guitar. I'm still playing today, and am sooooo thankful that I have stuck with i
Musicianship is a personal experience. You play for yourself, and for others, when the occasion presents itself. Mostly, IMO, it's a personal experience. If there's folks around, then okay, one needs to play well and project the passion of the words, if words are involved. Otherwise, the notes themselves are capable of much passion. My experiences is that one's playing improves when one is in touch with the instrument, musical "score" (if available), oneself and the audience if present. The combination can be very powerful and transporting, even existential.

I remember a memorable moment during one of the "Farm Aid"concerts when Neil Young came on stage, and started pacing around the stage. Clearly he had something on his mind. He began talking about Phil Ochs the great folk singer (if that's the right way to describe him) of the 60s and 70s until he committed suicide. Probably most of the audience never heard of Ochs or heard his inspiring music. So, some folks in the audience began to jeer Neil, asking him to shut up and start singing. Well, Neil's reaction was classic. He basically told those who were complaining to f***k themselves. His quote is great: "I play for myself."

'Nuf said.

Rich

 

[walrus]

Nice post, Rich!

With the exception of a some open mics several years ago, and a decade in a little "jazz/R&B" combo (which included "lessons", although not specifically guitar, but very very helpful in regard to timing, rhythm, playing with others, etc.) at the college I teach at, I definitely "play for myself". I love learning a new song, new riffs, etc. I try to find a song that I really like and preferably has something new or different in regard to playing skills that I can learn. I have a "list" of around 150 songs that I have learned and continue to play (a repertoire if you will). If I suddenly find myself not "excited" about playing one of them, I might try to do it a different way (as you said). If that doesn't help, it goes off the list.

As I get older, I enjoy it even more, and I know it helps keep my brain (such as it is) active, etc., to remember an old song or learn a new one. I have a wide variety of music I like. The last three songs I learned that I am still working on making "indestructible" are "Open My Eyes" by Rival Sons (a classic rock feel, great riff), the Beatles' "Wait" ( a song I know well but never tried to learn), and a really different song for me, Dave Brubeck's "Take Five". All are challenging me in different ways, and all are a blast to play.

For me, it is all about enjoyment. As you posted, I'm enjoying myself, and currently that's it, as I am not playing in front of anyone. But that is enough for me.

walrus

 

[Stuball48]

Great post Rich and it is great to me because I agree, totally!
When I practice, it is me, the guitar, and four walls with lots of my stuff (ham radio equipment) as sound absorbers. Sometimes I will be playing rhythm on an old country or Religious song - "singing" along or humming and then decide to figure out how to play lead or individual notes on the same song. I could Google and be spoon fed each TAB note but I have to concentrate more when I need to find a higher or lower note. Then, I realize patterns are forming and I feel better about my efforts.
Good on you Rich.

 

[davismanLV]

Unfortunately, if you're on tour, selling tickets, and making music for paying customers, you're no longer "playing for yourself". He can do that at home, just like I do. Maybe he could have structured his "tribute" to Phil a bit better and included playing some of his music. They didn't pay all that money to listen to some disassociated ramble, and telling them to **** themselves is ****ing rude.

I truly play for myself. It makes me happy and that's why I do it. So, I get it..... keep on keeping on Rich!! :encouragement:

 

[walrus]

Unfortunately, if you're on tour, selling tickets, and making music for paying customers, you're no longer "playing for yourself". He can do that at home, just like I do. Maybe he could have structured his "tribute" to Phil a bit better and included playing some of his music. They didn't pay all that money to listen to some disassociated ramble, and telling them to **** themselves is ****ing rude.

I'm a big Neil Young fan (at least his "older" stuff), but I agree with you.

It makes me happy and that's why I do it.

+1.

walrus

 

[Cougar]

...With the exception of a some open mics several years ago, and a decade in a little "jazz/R&B" combo (which included "lessons", although not specifically guitar, but very very helpful in regard to timing, rhythm, playing with others, etc.) at the college I teach at, I definitely "play for myself". ...

Similar here. I sat in on an old Wurlitzer electric piano with the John Flanders Quartet down at the Bayou ("Welcome to beervana") some years ago. I was surprised when the crowd went nuts! And I play a little at parties (none of those for a while!). Otherwise, yeah, it's just for my own enjoyment (and therapy!) I've been loving playing a couple of Tom Petty's pieces lately....

 

[dreadnut]

Unfortunately, if you're on tour, selling tickets, and making music for paying customers, you're no longer "playing for yourself". He can do that at home, just like I do. Maybe he could have structured his "tribute" to Phil a bit better and included playing some of his music. They didn't pay all that money to listen to some disassociated ramble, and telling them to **** themselves is ****ing rude.

I truly play for myself. It makes me happy and that's why I do it. So, I get it..... keep on keeping on Rich!! :encouragement:

Not a big fan of Neil Young, never have been. I guess he can afford to tell his paying customers to f*** off.

 

[richardp69]

Not a big fan of Neil Young, never have been. I guess he can afford to tell his paying customers to f*** off.

I'll balance it out Dread. I'm a huge fan of his, always have been, always will be. Some of his stuff went off the wall and off the tracks but some of his early stuff was pretty inspirational at least to me.

 

[DThomasC]

I'm not familiar with the Neil Young incident, but the way Rich tells it, it sounds like there were a few audience members that were being rude to Neil. His admittedly rude emotional response was directed at those individuals. I've been a fan of Neil Young's music forever but I've always understood him to be surly, self involved, and generally difficult to get along with. That's just what you get.

The Farm Aid concerts were charity events. Did the performers get paid? Were any of their expenses covered, or did it actually cost them money to get themselves and their bands there? The audience knew it was for charity and if a small number of them couldn't give a performer a few minutes to express their thoughts about music and why they're all there that day... well, I know who I think was a dick that day.

 

[dreadnut]

To each his own...regarding Mr. Young, I agree with Lynyrd Skynyrd. He's just always rubbed me the wrong way.

 

[crank]

Interesting thread/first post.

I play for myself but I love playing for others and often, when performing or just playing at a social gathering, I will play what I believe people want to hear rather then the slow, sad, contemplating life death songs that I somehow gravitate towards.

I mostly have played in bands and a huge part of musicianship for me is interaction with other musicians... probably a lot more than connection to a song.

I love Neil Young's music and have taken for my own many bits and pieces of guitaring technique from his percussive playing style. I don't think I would like him personally and I have never seen one of his concerts. Partially because I have heard you never know what you are going to get when you see him. Not surprising to hear him react like that. If you ever heard Pete Townsend speak, he would have probably said, " I fu&$%#& play for my fu&^%$# self."

 

[davismanLV]

Don't get me wrong. Neil Young has written some amazing songs and I also was a bigger fan of his early stuff. It's not that I don't like his music. I generally do. But if you listen to Graham Nash interviewed lately or at least recent years about CSN&Y getting back together to do a concert or record together, EVERYONE is amenable to that idea except Neil Young and he's also alienated the rest of them so badly that none of them speak to him any more. After all the years and music and Graham said none of them will ever speak to him again because he basically told them all to **** off!! So this behavior is nothing new. Doesn't mean he doesn't have talent. There are plenty of artists out there who are super talented and they're also super a$$holes. I think he's one of them.......

I thought this was a fun interview with Graham Nash who just seems like a good person to me:

 

[Cougar]

Don't get me wrong. Neil Young has written some amazing songs and I also was a bigger fan of his early stuff.....

Like Cinnamon Girl.

"Young has said that he wrote the song "for a city girl on peeling pavement coming at me through Phil Ochs' eyes playing finger cymbals. It was hard to explain to my wife." The city girl playing finger cymbals is a reference to folk singer Jean Ray....."

I knew Jean. Never wrote a song about her but.... she was great. She was on the Monster Mash tour with Bobby Pickett back in the early 70s, along with her brother Brian (who kept playing with McCartney after the Super Bowl gig). Ten people in a big motor home touring Dallas and St. Louis. Crazy times! Rest in peace, Jean.

​

 

[walrus]

I love Neil Young's music and have taken for my own many bits and pieces of guitaring technique from his percussive playing style.

+1. His style of playing acoustic in particular is so cool. I wish I could play that way...

walrus

 

[DThomasC]

No doubt the guy can be a dick. But, I'm trying to imagine myself in the audience on that particular day, listening to him rant and having someone heckle him. What would be my emotional response? Then, if he told the heckler to **** off, he plays for himself, not the hecklers, what would be my emotional response then?

When I cook, I cook for myself. If someone shows up at my house, I share. If they talk trash and accuse me of wasting time talking when I should be cooking for them...

Would it be different if I were a famous chef giving an occasional performance? Some stranger pays money to eat my creation then gives me **** for talking (about food) instead of getting into the kitchen and getting busy. Would I be wrong to give some **** back to the heckler, especially for the entertainment of the rest of the crowd that was interested in what I was saying?

This is not about whether or not I want Neil Young to be my friend.

WWAS? (what would adorshki say?)

 

[davismanLV]

This is a temporary thing, I hope for Al. I can't see him just letting us go like that. But if he finds somewhere else to haunt and spend his time there WWAS? WNN (We'll never know).

 

[Rich Cohen]

Unfortunately, if you're on tour, selling tickets, and making music for paying customers, you're no longer "playing for yourself". He can do that at home, just like I do. Maybe he could have structured his "tribute" to Phil a bit better and included playing some of his music. They didn't pay all that money to listen to some disassociated ramble, and telling them to **** themselves is ****ing rude.

I truly play for myself. It makes me happy and that's why I do it. So, I get it..... keep on keeping on Rich!! :encouragement:

Tom, Neil did play a song of Phil's titled "Changes." He had to be supported by a prompter. The song is long and complicated, moving back and forth in ideas and moods -- classic Phil Ochs. It's one of his best IMO. As far as Young is concerned, I agree his early stuff is some of his best. Also, I like his playing style, and have often tried to learn from it.

 

[JohnW63]

Musicianship is something I think I am learning from my instructor. I would like to buckle down and get a good list of song I know cold, but we keep moving into every topic that floats my boat. I can't complain, since he answering my questions with home work, but, I would like to have more recitals where we can play with a few of his friends and students and get really good at our list. I think playing WITH other players is what has begun to teach me that it's NOT just a collection of people playing their part and thinking that's all it takes. It's a give an take. " What should I do here, since the bass player is playing a bit quietly ? " or the time a guest player showed up with a Strat, and I was going to use my Strat like guitar... I put it in the case and pulled out something very sonicly different. Why compete or blend in to the same sound ? I think that sort of thing is musicianship, but being new to this whole thing of playing with others and in front of people, I could be wrong. I hope not. It feels a lot more fun, trying to find the sonic " holes " and fill them, than just playing a part as written.

 

[Rich Cohen]

Many wise points, John. I often play with a jam group, mostly old foggies like myself. Most of the time there isn't much difference sonically between the guitars in the group (mostly dreds), with an occasional fiddle, dobro and electric bass, even an accordion. And, as you pointed out, even with my brother dreds playing with me, its always interesting to try and find a "sonic hole" to fill, while also keeping a modest profile so as not to overwhelm anyone else. Then, there's the moment when the group leader asks one to "take over" the melody, and that always is a moment of sweet terror. Though no one is ever critical, only supportive. Playing a solo before an audience is completely different, of course, and has its own challenges and pleasures.

 

[dougdnh]

I played in bar bands through most of the '60's doing mostly greasy r&b-rock and roll dance music - i wasn't into learning anything complex even though my dad was a jazz guitarist who tried teaching me some tricky George van Epps type stuff. I just wanted to make people dance and have a good time. Got back into a band in the late '80's. We had a great time, but I was always the odd guy as far as music - I had no interest in learning newer stuff like Talking Heads, etc - I just wanted to get people dancing to simple Chuck Berry/Rolling Stones rock and roll- instant gratification. Now that I'm a 74 year old retired greasy rock and roller, I'm starting to really get into the beauty of more complex stuff - Beatles, Bossa Nova, classic standards - there is sooo much to learn for my own satisfaction. Watching the Brazilian film 'This Is Bossa Nova' was a life changing experience - such beautiful, simple sounding but complex music.