Linseed Oil Application

[adorshki]

Oops. Looks like I joined this thread AFTER it went off the rails.
My mistake.
Nevermind . . .

Nonono!... You summarized well!
Valuable input, especially the reiteration that boiled linseed will catalyze, which protects the best.
Must be why it's such a standard recommendation, it's even what's recommended in my Guild owner's manuals.
I just happened to be composing that veer continuation at the same time you were posting.

 

[gjmalcyon]

Oops. Looks like I joined this thread AFTER it went off the rails.
My mistake.
Nevermind . . .

Not a mistake - that was valuable information you posted. I would have never thought to use Watco.

Question for you: Understanding that you wipe it on and immediately wipe it off, you don't notice a buildup over time?

 

[adorshki]

Not a mistake - that was valuable information you posted. I would have never thought to use Watco.

Question for you: Understanding that you wipe it on and immediately wipe it off, you don't notice a buildup over time?

The catalyzation eliminates that problem. It basically hardens like a varnish, but microscopically thin.

With the linseed oil, it's called "boiled" linseed oil because boiling was the original method of creating air-catalyzing (self-hardening) polymers
Wiki:
Boiled linseed oil
Today, "boiled linseed oil" refers to a combination of raw linseed oil, stand oil (see above), and metallic dryers (catalysts to accelerate drying).[19] In Medieval times, linseed oil was boiled with lead oxide[20] (litharge) to give a product called boiled linseed oil. The lead oxide forms lead "soaps" (lead oxide is alkaline) which promotes hardening (polymerisation) of linseed oil by reaction with atmospheric oxygen. Heating shortens its drying time.

In the Watco that's achieved through solvent evaporation.
Note BigAl mentioned his guitars are poly-finished so he's not worried about solvents in the Watco, and he recommends using care around NCL, but I'd keep it away from any NCL just to prevent any possible accidents.
Thus, another reason for the linseed oil.
Linseed is an edible oil by the way, it's just that its extremely high percentage of alpha-lineolic acid makes it the best performer as a drying oil, meaning it hardens as it dries.
Walnut oil also has high concentrations of alpha- and lineolic acids, it should perform similarly if treated similarly, but it's lot more costly.

 

[Big-Al]

Not a mistake - that was valuable information you posted. I would have never thought to use Watco.

Question for you: Understanding that you wipe it on and immediately wipe it off, you don't notice a buildup over time?

When I put enough coats on a woodworking project, it can almost look lightly varnished. I've never noticed any visible buildup on fretboards though. I do sometimes use extremely fine Scotchbrite to polish up the wood and frets. Maybe that helps. Mostly the treated boards just look more like new and any superficially worn areas blend back in.

The Watco product does contain some urethane. I believe that the urethane actually reacts with moisture in the air to make it harden.

You certainly don't want to leave rags with urethane or boiled linseed oil all wadded up. As they cure, they generate heat. Under the right circumstances, they can actually catch fire on their own. If you lay them out flat, they will dry and cure without heating up. I still douse them in water before throwing them away.

 

[gjmalcyon]

You certainly don't want to leave rags with urethane or boiled linseed oil all wadded up. As they cure, they generate heat. Under the right circumstances, they can actually catch fire on their own. If you lay them out flat, they will dry and cure without heating up. I still douse them in water before throwing them away.

The One Meridian Plaza fire in Philly in February, 1991 started that way. Three firefighters lost their lives, and several of my clients (I co-owned an IT company at the time), lost their offices.

 

[bobouz]

When I condition a fretboard, I WANT to seal the wood and block the pores. If you want to preserve wood, you want to seal it. That's why we paint our homes and varnish our furniture.

It's not rocket science or an exercise in organic purity. Fretboard wood is dead. It doesn't breathe and it doesn't need nourishing . . . but it does get exposed to stuff you don't want there. You want to clean off the crud and leave something behind that looks good and protects the wood.

Wow, this goes against the grain (pun intended) of everything known to mankind (okay, not quite).

The reason I oil fretboards is that they can dry out and shrink or crack, in particular ebony boards. Dried out boards can cause frets to protrude on the edges of the board - not a good thing. And fretboards are under tension, so a periodically oiled board remains more flexible and less prone to cracking. It has nothing to do with cleaning - that job can be nicely handled by using 0000 steel wool.

As for bridges, similarly, they are under pressure on a flat-top guitar, and a hydrated bridge is less likely to develop a split, or crack between the pin holes. Therefore, I oil the bridge at the same interval as the fretboard on an acoustic.

This thread has been a very interesting read, with so many angles & opinions. Good stuff.

 

[Big-Al]

Well, with the scarcity of high quality ebony ebony and most species of rosewood going on the CITES list next year, guitar makers will probably be switching more and more to Micarta or Richlite fretboards anyway. I'm good with that. Those materials are durable. They look good, sound good, don't split, and never need conditioning . . . but I'm not very traditionalist when it comes to guitars. Plus, my work is related to wood/plastic composites so I'm pretty familiar with their positive attributes. I'd be very happy with a guitar that had a composite fretboard and/or bridge. In the meantime, I'll treat my natural fretboards with artificial preservatives.

:laughing:

 

[davismanLV]

.....and a hydrated bridge is less likely to develop a split, or crack ....

Here's where people get confused. The only thing that HYDRATES is water or moisture. The ONLY thing. If you want to hydrate something (even say your skin?) you apply water. What oils do is to prevent evaporation. Sealing wood that is dry pretty much guarantees that it will stay dry because it won't absorb moisture because it's SEALED. Likewise, if it's moisturized and balanced and you seal it, it's more likely to stay that way. Oil, waxes, lubricants and the like don't moisturize. Only water can do that.

So that's why I wipe my fretboard down with a damp cloth to clean it (it absorbs some moisture) and then seal it with a light coating of oil. Thus maintaining the hydration of the wood. Mostly, I keep my guitars in my climate and humidity controlled home, where variations of temperature and humidity are minimal.

Also, I like the look of a darkened and polished fretboard. Also, it makes me FEEL like I'm doing something good for my guitar. Whether I actually am, is anyones guess...... :encouragement:

 

[rampside]

In other words then, the best thing to do is give your fretboard a gentle (no moisture at all if possible) cleaning when changing strings and to keep the guitar in a proper temp/humidity controlled environment to minimize as much as possible the expansion and contraction caused by changes in those factors?

The bridge should be left alone then?

Using a non-harmful conditioner (such as an oil substance) then, would be for the players feel only and if, say, you like the enriched look it may give the wood?

I'm sure this has all been said in this thread already, but I wanted to summarize in my head, what I've picked up on here.

 

[bobouz]

Here's where people get confused. The only thing that HYDRATES is water or moisture.

Yes, I was using the term more as a mental visual.

Did not intend to add confusion to a topic that's already a bit of a head scratcher!

 

[bobouz]

Sealing wood that is dry pretty much guarantees that it will stay dry because it won't absorb moisture because it's SEALED. Likewise, if it's moisturized and balanced and you seal it, it's more likely to stay that way. Oil, waxes, lubricants and the like don't moisturize.

I understand the concept that you and Big Al are proposing here, but I've never, ever read this in any guitar repair manual going back to the '70s (still have a few of 'em buried somewhere), including Dan Erlewine's most recent 3rd edition repair guide. My personal recommendation is as presented in post #46, and it's based on published material as well as 45+ years of many guitars come & gone.

 

[bobouz]

In other words then, the best thing to do is give your fretboard a gentle (no moisture at all if possible) cleaning when changing strings and to keep the guitar in a proper temp/humidity controlled environment to minimize as much as possible the expansion and contraction caused by changes in those factors? The bridge should be left alone then? Using a non-harmful conditioner (such as an oil substance) then, would be for the players feel only and if, say, you like the enriched look it may give the wood? I'm sure this has all been said in this thread already, but I wanted to summarize in my head, what I've picked up on here.

This is certainly NOT what I am saying. Some seriously differing opinions have been presented here. At this point, I would highly recommend independently researching the recommendations of respected repairmen in the field. Erlewine's most recent book would be a good place to start.

 

[davismanLV]

Terry, I'd say use the same procedure on the bridge as you do the fretboard. It's usually the same wood, but even if not, it's unfinished wood. Needs the same treatment. I don't use the steel wool because it's too easy to accidentally graze the finished top. Plus, the bridge doesn't get many grimy fingers all over it all the time, and it has no metal to clean (frets). I use water on mine all the time. Water is one of the best cleaners. A damp soft cloth is primarily what I use to clean the whole guitar. Then wipe it dry and polish. 2 Hydrogen to 1 Oxygen is the recipe I use.......

 

[adorshki]

This is certainly NOT what I am saying. Some seriously differing opinions have been presented here. At this point, I would highly recommend independently researching the recommendations of respected repairmen in the field. Erlewine's most recent book would be a good place to start.

I'm with you.
And I definitely would NOT put anything containing urethane ANYWHERE near an NCL finish.
Which means US-built Guilds.
So Watco's absolutely out.
Sure you want fretboard and bridge to be properly "hydrated", but the nature of 'em is that they're of dense enough woods to require very little maintenance anyway.
I've got no problem wiping away fret buildup with plain water on a microfiber cloth.
Then give a treatment like Tom says.
I've used Guitar Honey on mine.
Yep, it's got mineral spirits in it, but at like only 3 or 4 times over 20 years for the D25 and only a couple of times on the other 2, I'm not too worried about it.
They live in their cases in a place where the humidity very rarely gets outside the ideal 45-55% year round.
I just never got around to chasing down boiled linseed oil for that rare of a use.

 

[Big-Al]

I understand the concept that you and Big Al are proposing here, but I've never, ever read this in any guitar repair manual going back to the '70s (still have a few of 'em buried somewhere), including Dan Erlewine's most recent 3rd edition repair guide. My personal recommendation is as presented in post #46, and it's based on published material as well as 45+ years of many guitars come & gone.

As I remember it, I got the idea of using Danish oil from a Bob Taylor video I saw . . . but I can't seem to locate it on the internet anymore. Maybe my memory is cloudy. People do talk about using Watco for fretboards on various forums, so I'm not alone.

Luthier Terry C. McInturff wrote extensively about this once as well. He specifically recommended Watco, but I can't find a working link to that either.

It is recommended by the folks at Sweetwater: http://www.sweetwater.com/insync/oiling-guitar-fretboard/

Dan Erlewine has a YouTube video about conditioning fretboards: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=srJNuBS_nLk

Not surprisingly, he recommends a product sold by StewMac. He describes it as a drying oil that penetrates, dries almost immediately, hardens, and creates a super thin finish on the fretboard. Sounds to me like StewMac is basically selling their own brand of Danish oil.

 

[adorshki]

As I remember it, I got the idea of using Danish oil from a Bob Taylor video I saw . . . but I can't seem to locate it on the internet anymore.

Danish oil IS tung or boiled linseed oil:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danish_oil

People do talk about using Watco for fretboards on various forums, so I'm not alone.

But what kind of finishes is it getting near?
What concerns me, and I'm just taking your word for it, is you mention that the Watco contains solvents and urethane.
I do thank you for pointing out that your guitars are poly finished so you're not worried about a reaction, but with very few exceptions, any American made Guild acoustic is going to have an NCL finish.
At first I was only concerned about possible damage to the top when treating the bridge and around the fretboard extension, then it occurred to me that the whole back of the neck is at risk when treating the fretboard.
So assuming you're correct about the Watco, it'll never get near my guitars.

Not surprisingly, he recommends a product sold by StewMac. He describes it as a drying oil that penetrates, dries almost immediately, hardens, and creates a super thin finish on the fretboard.

Which is exactly what boiled linseed oil does, and time-tested safe around NCL.

 

[bobouz]

Interesting. In his book, Erlewine recommends lemon oil.

Obviously before that new Stew-Mac product was developed!

 

[Big-Al]

Danish oil IS tung or boiled linseed oil:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danish_oil

But what kind of finishes is it getting near?
What concerns me, and I'm just taking your word for it, is you mention that the Watco contains solvents and urethane.
I do thank you for pointing out that your guitars are poly finished so you're not worried about a reaction, but with very few exceptions, any American made Guild acoustic is going to have an NCL finish.
At first I was only concerned about possible damage to the top when treating the bridge and around the fretboard extension, then it occurred to me that the whole back of the neck is at risk when treating the fretboard.
So assuming you're correct about the Watco, it'll never get near my guitars.

I used it on a lacquer finished Seagull without a problem. The solvents listed in the Watco MSDS (Stoddard, naptha, and mineral spirits) shouldn't be a problem with a Nitro finish. If your guitar finish is old and cracking, that's a different story. Any kind of oil could penetrate the cracks and soak into the wood . . . as would any kind of wax or polish.

 

[Bill Ashton]

I am really late into this thread, but I must say I have never used anything but Gibson fretboard oil on any of my guitars' fretboard or bridge, since about 1995, and never a problem. As I have read, about once a year is max. Also read that "lemon oil' is also OK, and as I am probably finally out of the Gibson stuff, will go over to that. I would think that some of the other oils spoken of here might put a finish on the surface of the wood, which in this case is not what one is looking for.

Then there is Rickenbacker, who in fact does lacquer their fingerboards...

Also guys be real careful what you do with the rags afterwards. Those drying-oils are prone...meaning readily...able to start spontaneous combustion, especially when used with our favorite old-cotton t-shirts. Mine go outside on a fence to dry for several days...if they still smell of the oil, the do not come in unless they are going straight into the wash. And just water won't do it, you need soap to break up and flush out the oil.

 

[kostask]

From the Dan Erlewine video, he is recommending Fretboard Finishing oil.

Going to the StewMac website, and looking at the description of Fretboard Finishing Oil, I have extracted the following paragraph (strictly quoted, no edits):

"Pure linseed and mineral oils have been traditional fingerboard preservatives, but they don't dry completely hard, often leaving a sticky playing surface. ColorTone Fretboard Finishing Oil combines the nourishing benefit of traditional linseed with special dryers. 24 hours after application the wood is sealed and protected. The fretboard looks great and feels smooth, never sticky."

So we have two premier guitar repair experts, Frank Ford (recommends mineral oil) and Dan Erlewine (recommends the StewMac Fretboard Finishing Oil, see other comments above). Two great sources, in disagreement.

Loads of opinions, most of them divergent.

The talk of furniture oil (Watco, Danish, and others) is off base. Reason it is off base is that furniture oil is not designed to have metal wires rubbed against it, like fretboards will have if the guitar is played, by definition. I don't know how it came to be that we needed some sort of coating or vanish to be on the surface of the fretboard, but between the steel strings, and the sometimes acidic hands of some players, the coating will turn to goo. Using an oil intended to sit in place and look pretty is not what is suitable for fingerboards if you look at the use case realistically. The furniture oils were not intended for this use, and are not well suited to it. You need to seal the fretboard to the greatest possible extent by getting a thin, drying oil into the pores of the wood, not sitting on top of it. That is why I made the recommendation for natural (non-polymerized) walnut oil. I don't want my fretboard to look like it is varnished; I want it to look like the wood that it is to the greatest possible extent. If I wanted a varnished fretboard, I would have it varnished. I like the feel of a bare wood fretboard, and will do what I can to prevent it from drying out. The idea of putting oil on a fretboard is not to coat it, it is to seal it against moisture loss.

As I have said before, if you want to coat your fretboard in axle grease, feel free. You own it, you play it, you need to deal with the consequences of your actions.