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Does Guild use laminate backs and sides for any guitars? or laminates of any sort?
Laminates?
- Thread starter thomaslee86
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sitka_spruce
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Only for arched backs, and happy are we for that 
Graham
Venerated Member
sitka_spruce said:Only for arched backs, and happy are we for that
EhMen!
john_kidder
Senior Member
And almost all archtops, save the CA-100, A-500, X-700 and Artist's Award,
sitka_spruce said:Only for arched backs, and happy are we for that
1967 F50Rosewood has a solid arched back.
Here's the pictures
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=8363
sitka_spruce
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Oh? I always assumed RW was flatbacks invariably. Good info, mate!capquest said:sitka_spruce said:Only for arched backs, and happy are we for that
1967 F50Rosewood has a solid arched back.
Here's the pictures
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=8363
john_kidder
Senior Member
capquest said:
Great to be reminded again of your beautiful guitar.
But I'm pretty sure that the back is a laminate - very high quality rosewood laminate, but a laminate still. It's not possible to get the necessary strength to hold the back together from a presseed sheet, unless it's carved from a solid chunk of wood or laminated.
Hans will know if any flattops had solid carved backs.
john_kidder said:
I've just rechecked and using a flashlight i can see that the inner grain pattern exactly matches the outer pattern.
A luthier once told me that there is a tool invented by the Stradivari family that allows the builder to prepunch the shape and then using a gouge finish the shape.
If it is laminated they started with one thick piece of Baz Rosewood, sliced it thin then glued it back together after bending it on a jig and took the time to mach the grain. Maybe Hans will know.
Don't be so sure, John. Cap's guitar was one of the first F50Rs ever made. They didn't make many arched rosewoods. I suspect his is solid.
Hi Cap; that is one of the most beautiful Guilds ... it's just plain stunning. Maybe just for the sake of throwing the Baby Ruth in the swimming pool, why couldn't that back be made out of three plys of Braz ... top and bottom - from the same log and possibly book-matched - with an intervening layer at 90 degrees of you-name-it wood? Considering how expensive that wood was even back in the day and the labor required to reduce it's thickness maintaining uniform thickness and curvature ... Even if just one person did it, they could spend a couple of weeks on it and, if they messed it up, they'd have to do it over.capquest said:
Provided the inlay would withstand the steaming, they could have routed the back, put the inlay on it, steamed, shaped, and trimmed it much faster and with better QA/QC than they ever could with gouges, drawknives, and convex and concave planes. No matter how much we like to think of the workers there as 18th century artisans heroically carrying on the tradition with narrow, focused faces, wire-rim glasses, and pony tails ... they worked in a production shop ... best product for the least cost.
If it really is hand-carved, I'll bet you a set of Guild strings that they tried laminating one first just to see if they got a good result allowing them to avoid all the hand-work. Finally and if it really is hand-carved, it's hard to believe it was a production model ... you know ... specially made for the King of Mesopotamia or something ... who knows but one extraordinarily beautiful guitar ... no matter how it was put together. CJ
GardMan
Enlightened Member
Somewhere I recall reading about experiments in using rosewood laminates for backs (as BRW became more rare?), either in Hans' book or one of his posts.
Carving an arched rosewood back would require a "blank" that was twice as thick (or more!) than a flat back... I would think this would viewed as rather wasteful, especially if one was talking about BRW!
Given the success of the arched maple back of the "standard" F-50, I would bet that your arched rosewood back is also a laminate... but what does it matter. It looks absolutely gorgeous, and I'd bet is sounds even better!
Carving an arched rosewood back would require a "blank" that was twice as thick (or more!) than a flat back... I would think this would viewed as rather wasteful, especially if one was talking about BRW!
Given the success of the arched maple back of the "standard" F-50, I would bet that your arched rosewood back is also a laminate... but what does it matter. It looks absolutely gorgeous, and I'd bet is sounds even better!
capnjuan said:
When ordered it was referred to as an F50 Rosewood custom. Whatever that meant. It took five months from order to delivery. I went to Hoboken and saw the pieces of it in a large closet along with the parts of two others. I remember seeing the neck and several other pieces. Can't recollect more than that.
How could one check to see if it was indeed a laminate?
GardMan
Enlightened Member
Don't know of any non-destructive way to tell solid from laminate. I presume that you would be able to tell if it cracked (but I doubt laminated back would crack, and pray that a solid back won't!). If some of the marquetry strip came out, I would guess you could see if the underlying grain was in a crossed direction.
Hans' book actually mentions some F-50Rs made with laminated rosewood backs in the late 60s (see p116).
Hans' book actually mentions some F-50Rs made with laminated rosewood backs in the late 60s (see p116).
Hi CQ: I don't really know either . There's a big blonde Guild A-350 that shows up on eBay every so often. This One. The seller says it has carved parts; it's arched maple back has a visible, undecorated center seam. We have several ex-Guild guitar makers among the BBers here ... maybe they know. Hans Moust is vacationing here in the US; he'd probably know more about it than anybody. CJcapquest said:
That's a beauty, CJ.
If the grain in capquest's F50R arched rosewood matches inside and out, then we must assume it's solid. That's the way we're always discerned solid back/sides. I think it'd be nigh impossible to match the grain inside and out on a laminate. That said, the only way to tell is to drill holes (or peel off the binding), neither of which would appeal to cap.
By the way, I've got dibs on this baby if cap ever sells it.
If the grain in capquest's F50R arched rosewood matches inside and out, then we must assume it's solid. That's the way we're always discerned solid back/sides. I think it'd be nigh impossible to match the grain inside and out on a laminate. That said, the only way to tell is to drill holes (or peel off the binding), neither of which would appeal to cap.
By the way, I've got dibs on this baby if cap ever sells it.
Hi C-Man; assuming it were laminated, the visual similarity could be a function of the pieces - even a large, continuous edge-to-edge sheet - having been adjacent to each other in the raw. If this is how book-matching is achieved in laminated backs - as is strongly suggested by the pics of the back of Capquest's guitar - there's no reason why this wouldn't explain nearly-identical grain outside v. inside.Chazmo said:
Besides decoration, another function acheived by marquetry is concealing seams. If there is a seam there - like the seam the on the A-350 - then it's harder to imagine anybody going to the trouble to hard-carve, then edge-match two pieces or, alternatively, edge-match then hand-carve them.
I agree that 'looking at it' is about all we're left with but there's at least one other reasonable theory that explains the visual similarity. Assuming it's a solid piece of wood, I question whether the arch was achieved by manual reduction. I don't know how flexible steamed rosewood is but if it's flexible enough, then I don't think the Guildies would have bothered with hand work ... the King of Mesopotamia not withstanding. CJ
capnjuan said:
Agreed. Definitely possible either way. Maybe Hans can weigh in.
Here's some pictures I took today of one of the grain features inside and out.
BTW. You can see on the outside picture what an original 41 year old finish looks like after traveling a couple of hundred thousand miles on a container ship. This guitar's been played in every time zone on the planet. I never treated it like a museum piece.
BTW. You can see on the outside picture what an original 41 year old finish looks like after traveling a couple of hundred thousand miles on a container ship. This guitar's been played in every time zone on the planet. I never treated it like a museum piece.
kitniyatran
Senior Member
In the Late teens(?) & early twenties, Vega made what are now referred to as "cylinder back" mandolins & mandolas. Depending on model, they have pressed arched mahogany, maple, or rosewood solid backs. I know nothing of how they did it, but the tops, not the backs, are their structural weak points(apparently due to the pickguards). Maybe because of the smaller body size, they could get a bendable, yet stable single ply