Laminated arched back - what's it mean exactly?

[Recky]

Hi there,

over the past few days I have really gotten into the Guild thing and could well imagine becoming a (small time) collector. I do own the first Guild already, a '74 D-50 in very good nick, which is my favourite of the lot, and I'm currently looking for a nice F-50.

I have a technical question about the arched backs that were used on dreads before the mid-70s and the jumbos to this day. Traditionally, laminated backs and sides are associated with low-cost entry level guitars. On the other hand, Guild has used laminated arched backs on almost all of their acoustic guitars at one time or another, including the high-end ones. What is the story here? Does "laminated" mean something else in a Guild guitar? Why did Guild stop using arched backs on their dreads in the 1970s, but not on their jumbos? And finally, what is the difference in sound between a flat back and an arched back on the same model guitar?

Thanks a lot, you knowledgeable people
Recky

 

[capnjuan]

...Traditionally, laminated backs and sides are associated with low-cost entry level guitars. On the other hand, Guild has used laminated arched backs on almost all of their acoustic guitars at one time or another, including the high-end ones. What is the story here?

Hi Recky; if you think about it, most inexpensive guitars with laminated or 'plywood' tops and backs are flat, not arched. It's been a long time since the days of hand-carved tops:

Guild backs are made of several layers or plys of thinly sliced wood that are laminated together, steamed, and molded to shape. They are considerably stronger than single plys, faster to make, simplify QA/QC, and, depending on the choice of materials, don't give up anything in the way of beauty. I have yet to hear anyone say they wished their Guild didn't have an arched back or that they wished the flat back on their Guild was arched. As is always the case, the tone implications are largely subjective and a matter of many opinions. Cheers CJ

 

[chazmo]

Recky's got the bug!!!!

In general, laminates absorb more vibration than solid wood, which is why many of the laminate guitars out there don't project well and sound thuddy. But, making an arched back out of solid wood is very time-consuming and can be wasteful. There are some examples of arched solid backs in certain prototype or special models from Guild, but none in recent memory.

Anyway, for F50/F412 and JF30 models (not the GADs!) Guild chose to use arched laminated maple backs. One advantage (besides cost of manufacture) here is that they don't need to brace the back because the arched shape is inherently stronger. Also -- and this is just a guess -- I suspect the arched back reflects the sound better up through the soundhole and to the middle of the soundboard rather than dispersing it to the sides.

I think Guild also used an arched mahogany laminate for the D-25 model at some point.

Enjoy the hunt, Recky. LTG is a great place to get your questions answered. In this case, though, you absolutely have to listen to the guitars themselves to decide.

Oh, one thing I forgot to mention is that I've occasionally heard from F50/F412 players that the bulge in the back is a little annoying. As someone with a bit of a bulge himself, I could appreciate that. I wonder if a concave back has ever been tried.

 

[Recky]

Recky's got the bug!!!!

You bet, Chazmo. Once I get going they can't stop me, not even my girlfriend, who kind of joins in the fun, trying to understand the ins and outs of all my "hobbies". Being a recording studio owner, I just love microphones, especially vintage ones (although I can't afford many of them), and my girlfriend keeps impressing my professional friends by casually joining in conversations about vintage Neumanns. She'll be up to speed on Guilds in no time....

Enjoy the hunt, Recky. LTG is a great place to get your questions answered. In this case, though, you absolutely have to listen to the guitars themselves to decide.

Yes, I've been spending hours in the LTG archives when I should be working on my next CD album and booking gigs. I'm surprised I didn't get into the Guild thing (and this forum) sooner, because stuff like this is right up my alley, given some spare time. I haven't even found the F-50 that I'm GASsing for, and I'm already planning the next hunt after this - a mid-to-late D-25, preferably cherry!!!!
Hearing them all is another matter, as there are very few Guilds around over here.

Oh, one thing I forgot to mention is that I've occasionally heard from F50/F412 players that the bulge in the back is a little annoying. As someone with a bit of a bulge himself, I could appreciate that. I wonder if a concave back has ever been tried.

This is something that worries me a bit myself. I'm a somewhat stocky guy and play my solo gigs sitting down on a drum stool, because I play stomp box at the same time. Sitting down sort of emphasises the beer bulge even more than standing up...

Cheers,
Recky

 

[Graham]

Oh, one thing I forgot to mention is that I've occasionally heard from F50/F412 players that the bulge in the back is a little annoying. As someone with a bit of a bulge himself, I could appreciate that. I wonder if a concave back has ever been tried.

I'm still waiting for an answer from the R&D department on this.

Not surprisingly, it has been thought of here at LTG. :mrgreen:

 

[chazmo]

I love it, Graham!!!!

 

[Scratch]

Get to work Chaz!!! I'm going to any minute now... :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :lol:

 

[Recky]

This guy has found a different solution...

 

[chazmo]

Get to work Chaz!!! I'm going to any minute now... :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :lol:

Hehehe!!! Today, my F512 is here with me, Scratchy!

 

[chazmo]

Oh, man, Recky.... Ouch.

 

[GardMan]

Hey Recky,
In the dread line, arched backs first appeared ~'73, in the D-25 (originally all mahogany, then spruce/mahogany beginning ~'74) and G-37 (spruce/maple), and continued in the D-30 and G-45/Hank Williams (both in maple, descendants of the G-37), and the D-4, D-15/16/17 (all in mahogany... don't remember if they are all 'hog, or spruce/'hog).

I don't know that it's possible to do a flat-backed vs arched back comparison of the same model from the same year, except perhaps during the switch from the flat- to -arched all 'hog D-25s circa 1973 (and at some point, in the '90s or '00s, I think the D-25 went flat again). I think someone on LTG had both, but can't remember who (Grammy?). On the other hand, I can give you a comparison of a '72 D-35 (spruce/mahogany flat back) and a '74 D-25M (spruce/mahogany arched back).

The arched D-25 (with JP 80/20 lights on it) has the brightness of mahogany with powerful deep, almost dark, growling bass and incredible volume, projection, and sustain. I keep mine in DADGAD, mostly fingerpicking, but strum a couple tunes where I capo up 5-7 frets... the sustain and bell-like ringing make it sound like a 12er.

In comparison, the flat-backed D-35 (with JP PB and silk med/lights) is brighter and more balanced across the spectrum (bass to treble).. It' definitly got a bit more jangle in the trebles and mids than the D-25. Whether these differences are all due to flat- vs arched-backs is open to conjecture.

For further comparison, my G-37 is the same year ('74) and has similar construction to my D-25, but has an arched maple back and sides. The G-37 (with 80/20 bluegrass gauge) is smoother and more balanced sounding than the D-25, and I think has a "cleaner" sound, with better note separation. It sounds "richer" than the D-35. Tho' a recent setup and new (taller) bone saddle improved its volume, I still don't think it has quite the volume and projection of the D-25..

Continuing... my '92 D-55 (rosewood... currently strung with JP PB lights) can best be described as smooth and "majestic"... sounds like a grand piano. It sometimes overpowers my little 10' x 10' music room in our basement... I don't know that my playing does it justice. I actually won it on eBay in a "rebound" bid after first losing a D-46 and then a D-50 in rapid succession. Threw out what I thought was a ridiculosuly low bid (less than the D-50 I lost), and ended up winning. A D-50 is still high on my short list... I'd love to hear my D-55 and a D-50 side-by-side.

To round it out... if you mix them all together, you get my ash-bodied D-46. Currently strung with JP PB lights, it has some of the richness of the D-55 and G-37, mixed with the growl of the D-25 and some of the the jangle of the D-35. I imagine that a D-50 would sound like a meld of my D-46 and D-55... rich and majestic with a little jangle (which I like when I am strummin' cowboy tunes).

Of course, all of these descriptions are subjective, from my position when I am playng. Short of hearing a few riffs played by my luthier when I take them in for tune-ups, I haven't heard any of my guitars from the listeners perspective...
Dave

BTW... left messages and sent an e-mail to IMG&B... trying to arrange a time to have a look at those F-50s for you.

 

[Recky]

Hey GardMan,

that was an exhaustive description and it's much appreciated! Thanks very much!!!

Why would you think that a D-50 would sound any different than a D-55? Do you reckon the bling will make a difference, or is there more to it?

Since you have been kind enough to describe the sounds of your guitars (I modify the old adage 'talking about guitars is like dancing about architecture'), I shall attempt to verbalise the noise that emanates from my D-50

Well, as you said it before, it's a bit like a piano; when playing chords, instead of a wash or mush of sound you get a clear ring, a "kerrang", if you like.

I think it's best to compare to a non-Guild guitar: My Lakewood dread (80:20 lights) is a "boutique" guitar, cedar over 'hog, and very lightweight. Even at very low volumes, it produces the full frequency spectrum, with amazingly low bass and sizzly treble. In fact, overall it sounds like it has a built-in loudness button, like old stereo systems. This makes it ideal for players with a light touch, especially fingerstyle. When played hard, it doesn't get much louder, but it eventually breaks up.

The D-50 (80:20 lights), on the other hand, doesn't have the sub-bass and sizzle of the Lakewood, but a tight and roaring bass end, a pronounced mid-range that emphasises the pick attack at a lower frequency than the Lakewood, and a bell-like top end without the BBQ sizzle.
(Having been used to the Lakewood for a couple of years, when I first got the D-50, put fresh strings on and sat down to play it, I was slightly underwhelmed, because I couldn't find the loudness button. After adjusting my listening habits, however, I began appreciating the superiority of the D-50, at least for my style of playing.)

In other words, the D-50 has what I would describe as a "Steinway growl" with controlled overtones, a beefy but tight bass. It goes as loud as you can play without breaking up - and that's LOUD!

Incidentally, a few weeks ago I played a small bar/art gallery in Berlin without any amplification whatsoever - I have a pretty powerful voice, so that's OK - and the first few songs I played on my 12-string Gibson J-185, a loud bugger! Next, I grabbed the Lakewood and was completely taken by surprise how quiet it was in comparison, in this nicely reverberant, large living-room-sized space. In the studio and at home the difference in volume had never been that obvious, but that night I'd have much preferred my D-50, which I'd left at home.

That's why I have decided to sell the Lakey to someone who puts it to better use - someone who can actually play with their fingers, because it's the perfect dread for that. I need a couple of loud, beefy guitars, and I get the feeling that an F-50, followed by a D-25, along with my D-50, could make an excellent triplet - a strummer's dream....

Cheers,
Recky

PS: Thanks for checking out the guitars for me!!!

 

[Scratch]

Get to work Chaz!!! I'm going to any minute now... :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :lol:

Hehehe!!! Today, my F512 is here with me, Scratchy!

Thought I could hear someone picking a 12er up there in far NE Texas!! Sounds good! :mrgreen:

'Bronson' comes home tomorrow evening and 'Cali' goes in for a setup. Ross (luthier) says that K&K standard p/u is absolutely awesome and he's giving thought to stocking K&K vs. B-band... Can't wait!

 

[chazmo]

NE Texas!!! Bwahahah!!!!

Looking forward to the full run-down on Bronson, Scratch. I'm glad the K&K has turned out to be a good choice. I have yet to hear otherwise.

That reminds me... I need to get in touch with my luthier to have a look at my F50R and touch up some of the raw wood on the top and maybe brace a crack around the pickguard.

 

[Frosty]

This guy has found a different solution...

If you don't know this man he was Bruddah Iz - a very musical soul. Surf over to youtube and give a listen: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PL-uL2M3xvM

It's been a long time since the days of hand-carved tops

Eastman (China) turns our some very nice and, of course, relatively inexpensive (China), carved guitars today. I owned one for a while - it was a great guitar!

 

[JerryR]

Just to say Hi Recky - can't add any useful info as the technical guys have said it all :mrgreen:

 

[Recky]

Just to say Hi Recky - can't add any useful info as the technical guys have said it all :mrgreen:

Hi Jerry, how ya doin'?

Recky

 

[dreadnut]

Hi Recky:

I have an arched back D-25 too, and most owners of these will tell you that they really ring. I've always theorized that without braces on the inside of the back, the sound has more of a parabolic effect, you know, no braces to break up the sound waves. Or not

Either way, its important to remember that while the cheaper plywood guitars used junk wood on the inside plys and one thin veneer of nice looking wood on the outside layer, Guild used good mahogany, maple, or rosewood on all the plys. (The DCE-5 is a arched back rosewood model, my buddy has one, it's sweet!)

 

[JerryR]

Just to say Hi Recky - can't add any useful info as the technical guys have said it all :mrgreen:

Hi Jerry, how ya doin'?

Recky

Good

My own Guild is a D35 - so solid wood flat back, unlike its archback D25 cousin. I've played one of these - guy I know brings his along occassionally when he isn't sluming it with his Martin :mrgreen:

 

[GuildFS4612CE]

Thanks for the link, Frosty.

That man sure could sing...

And take a look at some of his videos...he fingerpicked that uke like a guitar.

Had the pleasure of seeing a well known Hawaiian cultural group perform here at a free concert for the 4th of July...if you ever have the chance...take it. Some beautiful talented people from those islands.