laminate back and sides

[creeksideguy]

I wonder why Guild chose to use laminate back and sides on so many of their acoustic flat tops. Was it a cost factor? Easier to produce? I think it would make a stronger guitar and not as prone to cracking but how does it affect the tone? Does anyone know the answer or have some thoughts.

 

[dreadnut]

only the backs are laminated on the D-25, the G-37, some DCE models,and others in order to form the back into an arch shape. This also allows for no internal bracing on the back, which I believe creates a unique sound.

The sides of these guitars are not laminated, they are solid.

 

[Mr. P ~]

The laminated back and sides on cheap guitars is a very different animal than the laminated back on a Guild (Hans, correct me if this is wrong).

Inexpensive guitars that are laminated have the finished wood vaneer on the outside so it shows on the outside of the body and on the inside of the body, and it has a less expensive filler core. This makes an inexpensive guitar that is dimensionally stable and does not crack like solid wood. However the tone suffers.

The Backs on Guild formed back guitars are made from multiple layers of the finish wood (mahagony or maple). No garbage filler layers. These guitars sound very similar to their all solid cousins, but because of the back shape and the lack of braces, they project the sound further than flat back guitars.

Some of this is my opinion and may be somewhat "skewed", but maybe our Guild Historian will correct my mistakes.

 

[Jeff]

Here's my hook on the use of laminates "plywood tone wood" in guitar building.

1st: Supply & demand & economics. The beautiful, stable, solid tonewoods suitable for solid sides & backs are the cream of the harvesting & sawing process. I suspect a realtively small percentage of a given log or load of logs from the forest is suitable for solid sides and backs, the majority is not.

Lamination using the lesser quality cuts for the inside layers where cosmetic defects anmd minor inconsistencies are unimportant allows a much higher percentage of each log to be used in the guitar building process. Smaller pieces can be utilized as well.

2nd. Plywood is considerably more versasatile than solid. Multi directional stability allows different design & manufacturing techniques. For example the arched back with no braces in my DC5.

Guild has been doing this for a very long time. The back & sides on my F20 are maple laminate (plywood), it was built in 57

 

[West R Lee]

Creek,

I couldn't agree with these guys more. They know their stuff. I would like to elaborate on something "P" said however.

Please excuse me for being overly technical, but the arched back gives a lot of room for the little sound waves to bounce around, so they are angry when they come flying out of the soundhole "screaming!" That's what makes um loud.

West

 

[Benee Wafers]

Of course the use of the term plywood is kind of discouraging.
I have read in a Luthier section somewhere that back and sides don't play that much of a role in determing the guitars tone/sound.Any comments on that statement?
So is what you guys are saying is that the quality of build and sound coming from one species laminate (back and sides ) is not truly inferior to a guitars with solid wood back and sides?
I guess it would be safe to say that laminates are less expensive than solid tone woods from a retail perspective?
Benee Wafers

 

[West R Lee]

I'm not so sure about that Benee. If the backs and sides play little role in the sound of a guitar, why are maple guitars so bright, mahogany mid range and rosewood so deep?

I think that the frequency of vibration is determined primarily by the top, but the back and sides set the tone.

West

 

[Mr. P ~]

Creek,

I couldn't agree with these guys more. They know their stuff. I would like to elaborate on something "P" said however.

Please excuse me for being overly technical, but the arched back gives a lot of room for the little sound waves to bounce around, so they are angry when they come flying out of the soundhole "screaming!" That's what makes um loud.

West

I do hear a little scream out of that D-25 every now and then!! :wink:

 

[West R Lee]

Yeh, mine too P......................."Put me down!"

West

 

[Jeff]

no , no, those are screams of extasy , they're sayin "do it again".

 

[dreadnut]

I also heard that the ply backs were used because the forming process included being soaked in water and then pressed into that shape.

 

[Mr. P ~]

The back of a standard braced back guitar vibrates Sympathetically with the top. Of course it has to be constructed lightly for this to work. The formed back guitar does not vibrate, it is a rigid surface. It is almost what West said, just in reverse. The shape focuses the sound waves towards the sound hole so fewer of them die inside the box. The ones that make it out are screaming for dear life!!

Benee,
Up here, plywood refers to the industrial product which is made from plys of soft woods like pine, fir and poplar. Plywood also has the grain alternating in every layer and laminates don't follow this convention.

When you use plys of hardwoods like Mahogany or Maple it becomes a Laminate, it is marketing, but it is a good way to keep them seperate in your mind.

Sorry guys....I'll stuff Mr. Wizard back in the closet!!

 

[West R Lee]

Hey P, don't ever apologize for being brilliant. I enjoy being enlightened.

Thanks for the info,
West

 

[West R Lee]

P,

I've got to ask you. With your backround in acoustics, what do you do exactly for NASA?

West

 

[West R Lee]

P,

Would I be correct in assuming that the density of the back and side woods, primarily the back, determine the frequency of vibration and therefore the tone? In other words, rosewood is more dense and vibrates less giving it a deeper tone?

West

 

[Mr. P ~]

P,

Would I be correct in assuming that the density of the back and side woods, primarily the back, determine the frequency of vibration and therefore the tone? In other words, rosewood is more dense and vibrates less giving it a deeper tone?

West

You just about hit that right on the head. The less dense woods vibrate more on the surface and tend to absorb the sound where the dense woods tend to reflect it out of the box. I am mystified by the difference in sound between Rosewood and Maple, I just can't come up with a good theory on the difference in Tone.

 

[Mr. P ~]

P,

I've got to ask you. With your backround in acoustics, what do you do exactly for NASA?

West

I worked as a sub-contractor to NASA (McDonnell Douglas) and my profession is a Materials and Processes Engineer. We assure that the materials used in the space vehicles will perform their jobs without failing. We are also responsible for assuring that the Processes used to build the hardware are appropriate for the using environment, and the resulting hardware won't fall apart in space or poison the astronauts.

My acoustic background is from my first job with Klipsch and Associates The maker of the world famous Klipschorn loudspeaker. Paul was my mentor for a while and taught me an emense amount about true engineering.

http://www.engology.com/eng5klipsch.htm

I you like good loudspeakers, check them out.

http://www.klipsch.com/

 

[West R Lee]

P,

Thanks for the info. Such an interesting backround you have. You don't have to sell me on the acoustic superiority of Klipsch.

When I bought my home stereo about 12 years ago, I bought a Yamaha discrete circuitry receiver and some very nice Infinity towers. I still use a pair of ancient Norman Labs for my rear speakers. My home system sounds fabulous to this day, however it's not what I really wanted. What I really wanted, but could not find locally was a Carver reciever and Klipcsh speakers. Neither were carried by anyone locally at the time and I didn't want to go out of town to get them. They are everywhere here now as we have had 2 or 3 large electronic stores move in locally here. Still wonder how great that would have sounded though.

West

 

[dreadnut]

so, does anyone know if Guild used laminated sides, or were just the backs laminated? My understanding is it was just the backs because of the pressing/forming process.

 

[john_kidder]

\The back & sides on my F20 are maple laminate (plywood), it was built in 57

Jeff - are you sure about the maple in your F-20? I thought they were all solid mahogany back and sides, spruce top?