Josh White's, 12 FRET F30NT, Spruce over Brazillian

[chazmo]

Re: Josh White Guild

Yes. Fascinating detective work, Hans. I think you're right about the spruce braces vs. mahogany. I don't suppose that the stage lighting and b/w film could be responsible for the braces reflecting so brightly in the old picture(s)... The different material in the bracing is pretty strong evidence that this was a different guitar, even if the bridge and PG weren't different.

Too bad Carlo couldn't remember making more than one of them, that would cinch it for me... in any case, I think you got it right!

One other thing that I'm not sure about... There appears to be a dark line across the grain on the lower bout of Josh's guitar on the treble side and that doesn't appear to be on the color pictures. I only see the line on the first picture, Hans, so it could just be the scan of that picture, but it could be more evidence.

I guess we need to be on the lookout for the real one that Josh played, eh?

 

[GardMan]

Re: Josh White Guild

Thanks Hans... an intersting story. It also appears to me that the label placement might be different. In the still from the internet, there appears to be more of the back seam center brace showing than appears clear of the label in th color pics of the "TV" guitar. Dave

 

[chazmo]

Re: Josh White Guild

Hey, Hans...

Is this why you were asking about that place in The Village recently?

I'll ask my mom if she ever saw Josh White there, but she wouldn't be able to help with guitar identification.

 

[hansmoust]

Re: Josh White Guild

Hey, Hans... Is this why you were asking about that place in The Village recently?

You mean 'Unredeemed Pledge'? No, not really!

Hans

 

[fronobulax]

Re: Josh White Guild

Well, people believe what they want to believe. I'll believe Hans if only because the History Detectives tend to over dramatize their story and pursue false leads that anyone with a prior knowledge of the subject would have ignored until they were the only leads left.

I have not taken the time to review all of the features of the alleged Josh White Guild but I seem to recall that they did not square with production specs. If the quitar under discussion was not made by Guild for Josh White than what is its story? Custom built but for persons unknown?

 

[killdeer43]

Re: Josh White Guild

Well, people believe what they want to believe. I'll believe Hans if only because the History Detectives tend to over dramatize their story and pursue false leads that anyone with a prior knowledge of the subject would have ignored until they were the only leads left.

Veering ever so slightly, I wonder if the History Dectectives would be interested in this old 12-string I have that used to belong to Leadbelly.
At least the guy who sold it to me said it was Leadbelly's. :wink:

Joe

 

[pickoid]

Re: Josh White Guild

I agree that the color photo seems to show that the back bracing of the History Detectives guitar is mahogany. Ignoring that for a moment, is it possible that the bridge and pickguard on the History Detectives guitar are replacements? It looks like the bridge is rosewood on the History Detectives guitar, which is kind of an odd choice with the ebony fretboard. The fretboard on the HD guitar does appear identical to the Josh White guitar. Perhaps it is the same guitar, and some work was done on it, and the luthier used available Guild replacement parts for the bridge and pickguard, even though they weren't exactly the same as the original parts. The problem with this theory is, folks like Stan Jay and Mark Dronge examined the guitar, and nobody said anything about apparent repairs (or at least, nothing that made the final edit of the program...)

So how to explain the apparent difference in back bracing? Is it possible that the back bracing color changed that dramatically over time? Heavy tobacco smoke or something?

I dunno. It's interesting to ponder our own little mystery here. I applaud the work Hans has done to root out the truth about the guitar.

 

[plaidseason]

Re: Josh White Guild

Isn't it also possible that there are two (or more) guitars - one that Josh actually played and another that we just part of the development process?

-Chris

 

[GardMan]

Re: Josh White Guild

It looks like the bridge is rosewood on the History Detectives guitar, which is kind of an odd choice with the ebony fretboard.

Don't know about other models, but several early Guild dreads had ebony fretboards and rosewood bridges... D-44 for sure, because my '71 has. I also think that the D-50 was originally ebony + rosewood. So, I don't think ebony + rosewood would be an uncommon choice during that period (harder ebony for the fretboard, and less dense rosewood for a "more responsive" top?).

 

[chazmo]

Re: Josh White Guild

Isn't it also possible that there are two (or more) guitars - one that Josh actually played and another that we just part of the development process?

-Chris

Chris,

I think that's what we're dealing with here. There aren't any records to consult, but Al Dronge's son seemed to say that there was only one ever built. And, he clearly remembered the Josh White situation as he claimed to be the one to bring Josh to Guild. I think that's the conundrum; i.e., that's the "evidence" to support the conclusino that this guitar is one and the same as Josh's personal guitar.

The bracing material -- spruce on Josh White's and mahogany on the guitar in question -- is the most important piece of evidence to support Hans' (and Carlo Greco's) conclusion. I don't think spruce could darken that much, although inspecting the guitar would help. The PG and bridge could be explained in isolation, but not the braces. And, the combination of all three things being different just seems unlikely.

If you guys haven't watched the episode, it's really worth looking at even if their conclusions about the guitar are wrong. The history of Josh White himself was very illuminating. There's also a video of most of their interview with Josh White, Jr. which I found particularly enjoyable.

 

[taabru45]

Re: Josh White Guild

Well, people believe what they want to believe. I'll believe Hans if only because the History Detectives tend to over dramatize their story and pursue false leads that anyone with a prior knowledge of the subject would have ignored until they were the only leads left.

Veering ever so slightly, I wonder if the History Dectectives would be interested in this old 12-string I have that used to belong to Leadbelly.
At least the guy who sold it to me said it was Leadbelly's. :wink:

Joe

Have you seen this Joe? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TlszmjNhaVQ Its the only film ever made of Leadbelly, 1945. What a huge presence he was. Thanks again to You tube. Amazing. :shock: Steffan

 

[hansmoust]

Re: Josh White Guild

.... is it possible that the bridge and pickguard on the History Detectives guitar are replacements?

Yes, that would be very well possible and I already mentioned that in my 'Josh White's Guild' story that's posted on my website.

It looks like the bridge is rosewood on the History Detectives guitar, which is kind of an odd choice with the ebony fretboard.

No, that would be a normal choice for Guild. During the '60s most of the high-end guitars with ebony fingerboards (with a few exceptions) had rosewood bridges. That was a leftover from Carlo's earlier career as a classical guitar maker. The general change to ebony ( in combination with an ebony fingerboard) took place during the '70s.

I agree that the color photo seems to show that the back bracing of the History Detectives guitar is mahogany.
So how to explain the apparent difference in back bracing? Is it possible that the back bracing color changed that dramatically over time? Heavy tobacco smoke or something?

The bracing material -- spruce on Josh White's and mahogany on the guitar in question -- is the most important piece of evidence to support Hans' (and Carlo Greco's) conclusion. I don't think spruce could darken that much, although inspecting the guitar would help.

Actually, I'm not 100% sure that it is mahogany but it sure looks like mahogany and since Guild used mahogany for back braces ( but usually on mahogany guitars) I was thinking in that direction. However it also could be the very low resolution of the photos that make it look so weird. I'm currently working on that part!

Isn't it also possible that there are two (or more) guitars - one that Josh actually played and another that we just part of the development process? -Chris

Sure, that could very well be the case.

There aren't any records to consult, but Al Dronge's son seemed to say that there was only one ever built. And, he clearly remembered the Josh White situation as he claimed to be the one to bring Josh to Guild. I think that's the conundrum; i.e., that's the "evidence" to support the conclusino that this guitar is one and the same as Josh's personal guitar.

Mark Dronge may remember the guitar being made for Josh, but he was not in a position to know whether there were more of them made or not. Josh White Jr, who believes his father had a one-of-a-kind guitar, sees the guitar and goes: 'Yes that's the guitar the Guild people made for my father'. It's all circumstantial 'evidence'.

Like I said, it's still possible that I'm wrong. I don't mind if I am. At least I've researched the things that didn't automatically support the claim that it was Josh White's guitar, which is something that the 'History Detectives' should have done in the first place.

Sincerely,

Hans Moust
http://www.guitarsgalore.nl

 

[pickoid]

Re: Josh White Guild

Well, if nothing else, I learned that rosewood bridges and ebony boards are typical for pre-70's Guilds... that's pretty valuable info, to me anyway. I guess this will be one of the mysteries of the guitar universe. Probably whoever owns the "real" Josh White Guild has it under the bed next to an original Gibson Moderne... :lol:

 

[hansmoust]

Re: Josh White Guild

Well, if nothing else, I learned that rosewood bridges and ebony boards are typical for pre-70's Guilds...

Note that I said that the change took place during the '70s, not 1970! I would say around 1972 the first D-55s and F-50s with ebony bridges started to appear.

Sincerely,

Hans Moust
http://www.guitarsgalore.nl

 

[chazmo]

Re: Josh White Guild

Hans, FWIW I agree with your conclusion, and I concur that both Mark Dronge and Josh White Jr. are not in a position to refute it. However, even though their comments are essentially hearsay, they do support the one-of-a-kind argument. Had anyone suggested that there were more than one of the prototypes built, they might have been a bit more circumspect in their claim, or perhaps they might've said if they didn't know.

I have to say, though, that I really enjoyed Josh White Jr.'s interview in its entirety (separate from the aired episode). What he said about his dad's playing and style really showed how much he'd been drawn into it by his dad and how much respect he has for his dad's work.

Anyway, best wishes in the continued search for truth here. The evidence (to me) leads to your conclusion and a lack of thoroughness by the investigators.

 

[adorshki]

Re: Josh White Guild

One of the things I've figured and respect about Hans is his understanding that the truth is most likely to be discovered by comparing as many independant sources as possible (something that History detective seems to have failed to do for whatever reason). Even then he still wants to see the physical evidence! Bravo Hans and thanks again for your contributions!

 

[gilded]

Re: Josh White Guild

Okay, guys look at the Elderly pics with a mind towards answering the questions below:

http://elderly.com/vintage/items/20U-12559.htm

Here are my questions, in no particular order..


Serial number is 40150. What year is that? '65, as mentioned?

In one Elderly pic, I see a label. Why don't we ask the Elderly guys to take a pic of the label, or at least tell us what it says?

Bridge looks like the puke-y brown bridge on my '68 f112sb, with fairly straight lines. Is that Braz or is that East Indian?

Also, I think of that bridge-wood color used on '60's sunburst models (along with similar looking washed-out fingerboards). Is that a color that one typically sees on natural top Guilds as well?

The bridge slot extends on either side of the saddle. Frankly, it looks rough. Is that factory? If it is, is it a 'cut-down' factory?

I can see a little bit of white in front of the bridge. Does that indicate that the bridge has at least been off (a reglue), if not replaced?

If the bridge is EIR (I wouldn't know, so I'm asking), would Guild have put an EIR bridge on a Braz guitar?

Do the Elderly pics look like someone has replaced the bridge? The pickguard?

The neck heel. Is that the normal Mark 'Classical' heel design from the mid '60's?

That's all I got. Thanks! gilded

 

[hansmoust]

Re: Josh White Guild

OK everybody,

It looks like I was wrong in my conclusion that the Guild guitar investigated by the History Detectives might not be the actual guitar owned by Josh White.

With the help of Stan Werbin at Elderly Guitars, we were able to get good explanations for the discrepancies between the photos I got from the actual guitar and the guitar in the old Josh White footage. He also was able to follow the trail how the guitar was originally sold and how it ended up with the current owner. There are still some minor things that I would like to see resolved but at this point I have no reason to think that the guitar in question is not the guitar that is shown in the old footage of Josh White.

Obviously I will correct my story on the internet and if Stan Werbin agrees I will try to turn it into a story that shows how we finally succeeded in solving the mystery.

Hope you've enjoyed the trip so far!

Sincerely,

Hans Moust
http://www.guitarsgalore.nl

 

[chazmo]

Re: Josh White Guild

Looking forward to it, Hans! Cool that Stan was able to dredge up the provenance of this guitar.

[GratefulDead] "What a long, strange trip it's been..." [/GratefulDead]

 

[idealassets]

GUILD® F-30NT SPECIAL "JOSH WHITE" (1965)

This is an insteresting looking guitar for sale at Elderly Instruments. Probably unaffordable, since you must "inquire" for the price. If anyone isinterested, I could make the trip and view it up close..

GUILD® F-30NT SPECIAL "JOSH WHITE" (1965)
VGC+ with repaired pickguard crack and one small top crack. This is the guitar featured on the PBS television show "History Detectives" and is a one-of-a-kind prototype for what was hoped to be a signature model for blues/folk singer Josh White. Had it gone into production this would have been the first signature model guitar honoring an African-American musician from a major guitar manufacturer and is historically important for that reason as well as that Josh played it. See the show on YouTube for more information: www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2dXwZ5beQ0&fea ... L&index=68. Brazilian rosewood back and sides, 12 fret mahogany neck, 19 fret ebony fingerboard with fancy floral inlays, rosewood bridge, slotted headstock with 3-in-a-line tuners (replacements), ebony peghead overlay with pearloid "Guild®" logo, tortoise plastic pickguard, white-bound body, b-w-b-w-b-w top purfling, b-w back purfling, ~25-1/2" scale, 2" nut width, with brown alligator Lifton OHSC (purple interior), price reduced (SN:40150)
sku: 20U-12559 .. $INQU.IRE