Hoboken vs. Westerly…is the bridge the “tell”?

[E-Type]

From time to time a question about whether a 1968-69 D35, D40, D50 etc was made in Hoboken or Westerly comes up. It seems that every time (unless the bridge has been replaced) the guitar is definitively from Hoboken, it has the old-style wider “floating” saddle while the Westerly saddles sit in a slot on a narrower bridge. That they made the switch at the new factory makes some sense. But is it less definitive than I’m thinking?

Hoboken

Westerly

 

[jedzep]

Not so much the saddle, in my observations, but the move away from the elegantly simple belly down shape, to the little 'cat ear' points at the bottom edge of the bridge, tells me a guitar wasn't born in Hoboken.

At least they didn't go to the mustache.

 

[E-Type]

This is a '67, so clearly a Hoboken, right? Are these "cat ear" points?

 

[jedzep]

Well, now I have to defer to those with actual knowledge rather than observational disinformation. I assume your label says Hoboken, but yes, that style bridge would throw me off as a post-Hobo era shape. There was plenty of part sharing during the transition era, I believe.

 

[fronobulax]

I assume your label says Hoboken

Remember that Guild used Hoboken labels on instruments that were made in Westerly during and after the transition.

 

[plaidseason]

Remember that Guild used Hoboken labels on instruments that were made in Westerly during and after the transition.

Which is why when I ask people if their guitar is a Hoboken or Westerly, and they definitely don't care as much as I do, they always say "I think Hoboken."

 

[Br1ck]

I must admit to slight disappointment when I found out my 70 was a Westerly with a Hoboken label. I soon got over it.

 

[Westerly Wood]

This is a '67, so clearly a Hoboken, right? Are these "cat ear" points?

that bridge is probably braz rosewood, too. that is a great vintage old Guild dread. so cool looking. mojo!

 

[chazmo]

Well, now I have to defer to those with actual knowledge rather than observational disinformation. I assume your label says Hoboken, but yes, that style bridge would throw me off as a post-Hobo era shape. There was plenty of part sharing during the transition era, I believe.

Yeah, it's never that simple with Guild... Let's also not forget the "cloud" bridge that was used in Hoboken which had those "cat ear" points, the one below from my 1967 F-50 Rosewood... I believe this was original, but the entire soundboard was replaced in 1971 so I'm not 100% sure.

 

[E-Type]

that bridge is probably braz rosewood, too. that is a great vintage old Guild dread. so cool looking. mojo!

I have talked to the seller. I asked about some measurements and he just says his luthier tells him it does not need a reset. I have heard that from guys who finally tell me the low E is 12/64" above the 12th fret, so I hate to jump in with no return option.

 

[Br1ck]

Well, you pay your money and take your chances. The up side is significant. Probably a Brazilian finger board too.

 

[E-Type]

I just ordered in a 1970 F-47 from Guitar Center. Saddle was about as low as you could take it, but the action was close to 5/54" so is good shape for now. Problem was that it just didn't sound great (it had new strings). I returned it 3 hours after picking it up. The guy I had check it out had a '66 or '67 F-30 in for work. The F-30 was louder and fuller sounding even with older strings. Highlights the risk of buying from afar without the possibility of return.

 

[davenumber2]

I just ordered in a 1970 F-47 from Guitar Center. Saddle was about as low as you could take it, but the action was close to 5/54" so is good shape for now. Problem was that it just didn't sound great (it had new strings). I returned it 3 hours after picking it up. The guy I had check it out had a '66 or '67 F-30 in for work. The F-30 was louder and fuller sounding even with older strings. Highlights the risk of buying from afar without the possibility of return.

This is the reason I love GC. Never any problem returning anything. And I’ve sent back my share. No real risk involved.
Buying expensive guitars with no return policy ain’t for me. You get a lemon, then what? Pawn it off to the next guy? Doesn’t sit right.

 

[Steve Weeks]

I've got the "cat ears" on the bridge, a serial number that seems like a Westerly construction, and a "Hoboken" label. But I bought it in August of 1969. And there's no embossed number on the back of the headstock. Luckily, I don't really care because it plays pretty well, and sounds great.
Perhaps a bit off-topic... where can I find information about ideal or close-to-ideal string height? The top on my D35 has risen up just a bit, and I think that may be the reason the action seems a little high. Thanks!

 

[bobouz]

This is the reason I love GC. Never any problem returning anything. And I’ve sent back my share. No real risk involved.
Buying expensive guitars with no return policy ain’t for me. You get a lemon, then what? Pawn it off to the next guy? Doesn’t sit right.

Absolutely, Dave. Although their format is far from perfect, the return policy is golden. I’ve never been so smitten by photos of an instrument that I was willing to take all the risk!

 

[E-Type]

I've got the "cat ears" on the bridge, a serial number that seems like a Westerly construction, and a "Hoboken" label. But I bought it in August of 1969. And there's no embossed number on the back of the headstock. Luckily, I don't really care because it plays pretty well, and sounds great.
Perhaps a bit off-topic... where can I find information about ideal or close-to-ideal string height? The top on my D35 has risen up just a bit, and I think that may be the reason the action seems a little high. Thanks!

So many ways to measure! First, what is the distance from the bottom of the low E to the top at the bridge? Hopefully 7/16”-8/16”. Next, what is the distance from the top of the 12th fret to the bottom of the low E string? Hopefully, less than 6/64”. If both those conditions are met, you just need a set up. If either, then there is still hope. If neither, then start saving your Penny’s!

 

[SFIV1967]

Saddle was about as low as you could take it, but the action was close to 5/54" so is good shape for now. Problem was that it just didn't sound great (it had new strings). I returned it 3 hours after picking it up.

Well, I guess Christopher explained why:

How to Determine if a Neck Reset is Needed

A common practice to check to see if a neck reset is required is to rest a straightedge across the top of the frets of your fingerboard. As the test is presented, if the straightedge just kisses the top of the bridge, as opposed to ploughing down into the soundboard, you are to conclude that no...

letstalkguild.com

Ralf

 

[Steve Weeks]

So many ways to measure! First, what is the distance from the bottom of the low E to the top at the bridge? Hopefully 7/16”-8/16”. Next, what is the distance from the top of the 12th fret to the bottom of the low E string? Hopefully, less than 6/64”. If both those conditions are met, you just need a set up. If either, then there is still hope. If neither, then start saving your Penny’s!

Thanks! I will get out the measuring gadgets tonight.
Looking at the pins holding in the strings, I wish I hadn't messed up the one on the high "E"... it snapped off as I was turning it out of an old violin tuning peg I got from my dad. At least 50 years ago. The original pins were white plastic... the only cheap-looking things about the guitar.

 

[chazmo]

Steve, you might want to get a new set of pins for that beauty. There's lots available about there from Stewart MacDonald (for one). I've also recommended and many have used Bob Colosi's help for this ( guitarsaddles.com ) . Bob can take your old pins and use them to measure replacements or you can just order some and sand appropriately.

Your existing pins look like ebony (or black plastic). Those do look terrific on a rosewood bridge like yours, but there are many other choices. After over 50 years of ownership, maybe she deserves a little bling.

 

[E-Type]

Well, I guess Christopher explained why:

How to Determine if a Neck Reset is Needed

A common practice to check to see if a neck reset is required is to rest a straightedge across the top of the frets of your fingerboard. As the test is presented, if the straightedge just kisses the top of the bridge, as opposed to ploughing down into the soundboard, you are to conclude that no...

letstalkguild.com

Ralf

This is a great explanation. I have a 1970 D-25 and the seller said it had had a reset and showed a pic of it passing the straight-edge test. However, the bridge was <0.25” tall and the e strings are only 3/8” above the top. Action is 5.5/64” and it sounds great unplugged.

This F-47 action was between 5/64” and 5.5/64” and the strings were 7/16” over the soundboard. The saddle was only 1/16” tall over the bridge, but someone had ramped the bridge so string angle was ok.

My luthier has some equipment that lets him check out the resonant frequencies of the top and back. They both peaked at the same frequency and he thought maybe they were out of phase and cancelling each other out. He had some ideas for stiffening the back, but I didn’t want to take that risk.