High-end guitars

[walrus]

Thought I would start a new thread about this topic, although I think it has been touched on before. I don't want to offend anyone, but I can't see what the big deal is with (at least some) very high-priced "high end" guitars. Last week, I went to a store I had never been to before. It was a little less than an hour away, and had Benedettos, Froggy Bottoms, Eastmans, etc. I was there to look at a Benedetto archtop, but I stayed quite a while and played several archtops and acoustics.

I played two different Benedetto models, a Bambino and a Bravo. Now the Benedetto was a beautiful instrument, but I have to say with the exception of it's "solidness", it wasn't a whole lot better than my X-50. A nicer jazz tone plugged in, but certainly not 5 times better, which is what the price was ($5,500). Same with an Eastman archtop I tried.

Then I played a $10,000 (yes, you are reading that correctly!) Froggy Bottom acoustic. Again, IMHO not as good as my D-64, never mind better. Same for a few others I tried.

I think the pricing has more to do with the woods and materials - ebony tailpieces, ebony tuners, etc., etc. But playability and sound were not that impressive, at least to this amateur musician.

Now it is certainly possible my ear is not good enough to notice a difference. It reminds me of the time my son and I went to look at a store that had Steinway pianos. He played a few, including one that was $95,000 MSRP (!!), and I could not hear much difference, although it was clearly a very beautiful musical instrument.

Anyway, just thought I'd share my thoughts, I drove home shaking my head - I was very much expecting to be blown away by at least the Benedetto, and I really wasn't. Maybe it's better this way - it saved me from considering a purchase of an expensive guitar, and it gave me a renewed appreciation for the "cheap" ones I already have at home!!

walrus

 

[JimbowF212]

The price tags of these and many other brands of guitars is why I haven't bought a new guitar since 1999. I paid a whopping $600.00 for a new Martin 000M and I haven't bought a new guitar since for two reasons. That guitar was OK but nothing to write home about and the price of the better sounding ones was much too high. I have never owned a Taylor because of the price tags and the decided lack of tone I hear from them. I have never even seen any of the brands you speak of but, from the price tags you have posted I couldn't afford one so why bother. I like good guitars and I will get me another one soon(Lord Willing) but it will say either Guild or Martin and since I have two unbeatable Martins a Guild will most likely be the one. I have played the high end Santa Cruz, Bourgeois and Collings Guitars and was unimpressed. I have played some Larrivies and Euhlers that were good but the price tags were once again the stopping point. I don't think these High priced makers do any better job then Guild or Martin and I see and hear nothing from them that would make me choose their offerings over a Guild or Martin. this is JMHO though!!!!

 

[cjd-player]

I think the pricing has more to do with the woods and materials - ebony tailpieces, ebony tuners, etc., etc.

Many years ago an old boss of mine told me "Don't confuse selling price with the cost of manufacture. Selling price is set by the marketing folks - truely what the market will bear. Marketing departments sell the sizzle, not the steak."

 

[guildzilla]

I am with you all the way, Jeff. While I like to think that I have some skills at discriminating quality, the Guild guitars I have more than match my expectations for excellence. To go to another level is something my hands can't feel and my ears can't hear. This is the honest truth. Others are more talented and more skilled than I am, and maybe they can discern more.

It's fun to like what you have, man. :wink:

 

[dreadnut]

A good guitarist can make even a relatively inexpensive guitar sound good, some guitarists can make a $5,000 Collings sound awful

 

[alpep]

buy with your ears and fingers

if your ears do not hear a difference and you fingers do not feel it, then it is not the guitar for you.


unfortunately some folks can't feel or hear the difference between a cardboard box and a fine instrument, but that is on them

buy and play what your heart and wallet tells you to play.


best advice is buy the best instrument you can afford

 

[Frosty]

buy with your ears and fingers...
best advice is buy the best instrument you can afford

I think it is important for those two sentences to be next to one another. "Best" is the guitar that inspires you to play - the one your ears and fingers like.

About price... I won't comment on the Eastman guitars, but for builders like Michael Millard, I'm sure the cost of living and working in the U.S. factors into the price of a Froggy Bottom. If someone plays a Froggy and likes the sound, then the price is understandable in consideration of those factor. If someone plays a Froggy and dislikes the sound, the the prices seems unreasonable.

I know a few full time guitar builders and they all earn a modest living. I would guess that it is the economy of scale and automation that keeps the price of U.S. factory made guitars (Guild, Martin, etc) lower.

 

[fronobulax]

Guitars are no different from other useful items that have various levels of performance, function and price. There are people who will make a choice based upon price or brand. Whether they can tell the difference and really get more for their money is hard to say. Some folks are clearly more concerned with the fact that YOU know they are playing a $10K guitar than whether their guitar is "better" than something at half the price. However some folks claim they can tell the difference and get more for their money. If, for example, I said that anyone who invested $10K in audio gear and claimed they could hear a difference between digital and analog sources was lying, half of this board would be all over me. And it would come down to the fact that they claim to hear something I cannot and no amount of discussion will improve my hearing.

As the risk of becoming somewhat of a pariah, I note a lot of folks seem to be defensive about their choice of Guild. People seem to need to build up Guild by tearing down some alternative - Martins, Taylors, Gibsons or boutique instruments. There are others who desperately want to justify their choice of Guild in some kind of cost/benefit calculus that superficially appears to be objective. This seems to be basic to human nature.

As a practical matter, being a geezer has taught me that sometimes my own opinion is the most important one. Thus, I say play and enjoy the Guild that works best for you and if something works better than a Guild for you, go for it. It won't ruin the friendship

I'll also note that as a bass player with vintage instruments I am in the interesting situation where there is really nothing currently in production that competes. If you want a Starfire like bass and walk into Guitar Center you will leave empty handed or disappointed.

 

[mad dog]

Lot's of truth in what Alpep says. Price is only one way to assess instrument value. Not the best way by any means.

I've grown much more confident in evaluating instruments, more able to let the feel and the personality of the instrument assert itself, more willing to hear it for what it really is, not for what I want it to be. For every high-priced guitar with little to say (or not enough), there's a modestly-priced, perhaps not highly regarded guitar filled with surprises. Those surprises are what makes instrument shopping such great fun.
MD

 

[Greenwoods]

Just my opinion, but I think things tend to get pretty non-linear once you exceed the 5k range. Differences between a 1k and a 2k guitar can be pretty significant. Between a 7k and an 8k guitar, I think much less so.

Starts with how you define "better" or "best". The guitar-owner relationship is not as simple as something you can capture in a soundclip. Take two absolutely identical guitars, except one costs 1k more because it has abalone trim. Is it "worth" it? To many people NO. But to a person who gets pleasure from having abalone trim, and has the extra money SURE. I own a few guitars that simply "make me happy", nothing else special about them than that.

Would I pay 10k for a guitar? Yes, in fact I have. And I get the "are you crazy" question all the time. I agree with Al, buy the best you can that meets your needs. And in some cases your "needs" may be so personal that only you can understand and value it.

Btw, you can have this debate with all kinds of high end products. Rolex watch is a good one. There is no freaking way it keeps time any better than a 20 dollar Timex. So what's the allure? Oh, Dear Santa I almost forgot ...

Dave

 

[evenkeel]

Would I pay 10k for a guitar? Yes, in fact I have. And I get the "are you crazy" question all the time. I agree with Al, buy the best you can that meets your needs. And in some cases your "needs" may be so personal that only you can understand and value it.

Btw, you can have this debate with all kinds of high end products. Rolex watch is a good one. There is no freaking way it keeps time any better than a 20 dollar Timex. So what's the allure? Oh, Dear Santa I almost forgot ...

Dave

I agree 100%. The price - value relationship can be a highly personal one, full of very subjective things. How a guitar sounds is just a small part of it. As is how a watch keeps time, a great observation. Does a Ferrari get you from A to B "better" than a Ford? Does a $1k pair of Ferragamo loafers make you walk better than Rockports? Part of the allure of owning these very high end products is the exclusivity and that has a value all it's own.

 

[Brad Little]

buy with your ears and fingers
best advice is buy the best instrument you can afford

I agree. A friend of mine wanted to get a less valuable guitar for times/places when he didn't want to take his vintage Hummingbird. He spent about a week going to every music store within 100 miles or so, playing every guitar for under $1000 he could get his hands on. He wound up with a $300 no name guitar because it sounded and felt right to him. That's really the bottom line, isn't it?
Myself, these days I play my Artist Award more than any of my other guitars, mostly because it is just fun to play it. However, I will admit that part of that fun is from pride in owning a beautiful, hand crafted instrument, but if it didn't also sound and feel right to me, it would be on the auction block regardless of it's physical beauty.
Brad

 

[alpep]

another thing to mention is that your ears often get sophisticated with time.

when I started playing on a 50 egmond from holland that was barely playable I had no clue that anything would sound or play better until I tried them.

After playing and hearing thousands of guitars, for me personally I think it is easier to hear distinctions in tone.

I played a single cowboy E on a friends D-55 made in New Hartford and stopped. it was one of the best sounding guitars I have played. period.

This has happened with other guitars too a Takamine EF 75 , D''angelico new yorker etc.

you cannot put an arbitrary price point where all guitars sound the same or have little differences. I strongly disagree.

Play a Collings varnish the price of the instrument is worth every penny.

We can rationalize whatever we wish but ultimately it is supply and demand. You can find a small independent luthier to build you the greatest sounding guitars for a few thousand or play tens of thousands for a vintage D 28 or d 18

buy with you own ears and your own fingers.

 

[Frosty]

I almost agree with alpep, but will stop short of brand name loyalty. Yeah, we are here because of our fondness for the Guild brand, but as far as individual guitars are concerned....

Play a Collings varnish the price of the instrument is worth every penny.

I've played several new Collings guitars over the years that did nothing for me. Then one day I picked up a used Collings taken in trade (5 years old, repaired seam crack in soundboard, poorly installed after market pickguard) and purchased it on impulse because the tone was wonderful. I love this guitar, but I would stop short of wholesale endorsement of the brand.

 

[chazmo]

Something we haven't mentioned so far is the presence of special features on some high-end guitars. Mostly I'm talking about custom-built luthier projects as opposed to just expensive factory guitars... You can't buy a factory guitar with Nomex laminates, soundhole cutouts, or maybe even special bracing materials/patterns, for example. Features that push the envelope of guitar construction are often a good reason to spend big money, as are perhaps special customizations that factory producers won't do for you. By the way, Taylor's build-to-order program is blurring that line rather significantly.

As for our beloved Guild acoustics, I think my appreciation for these (as with some of the early non-clone Ibanez acoustics) lies in their high value. This appeals to the New Yorker in me. I never buy junky acoustic instruments (just because they're cheap), but when something great is (relatively) inexpensive... that's when I buy.

This is an interesting contrast to, say, why a professional violinist wants a Stradivarius... People shell out small fortunes to own one of these 300 or so instruments, and clearly the limited supply of them makes for a different market than modern guitars. But do these violins actually sound better in some way than others? I don't know; I'm just throwing that out there. DOes the fact that they're 300+ years old matter either?

 

[killdeer43]

I do a bit of 'consulting work' with folks who are interested in buying new cameras and lenses, binoculars or spotting scopes. My first question usually has to do with how much they have and/or want to spend.

Big names usually cost BIG bucks while perfectly good equipment might cost substantially less. So, do you want to buy the 'name' or do you want to buy the one that works for you, feels good to you, and in the case of guitars, sounds good to you?

There's so much food for thought (one of my favorite meals) within this thread that we could probably veer our way into numerous sunsets and still be at an impasse. A big part of our individuality is driven by our eyes and ears, as well as our bankrolls.
And then there's the part about whether you want to actually play the guitar or just 'collect' it.

I like Dread's thought about good guitarists and bad guitarists and what they bring to the party. :wink:

Different strokes/strums. It's all good!

Ho, ho
Joe

 

[walrus]

Excellent thoughts, gentlemen! I think for me, it is simply that I can
not hear or feel the difference, so my frugal Yankee upbringing comes into play and I say "why bother?" with the high-end guitars. And I *wanted* to notice a difference when I went to the store, I was psyched up to visit and try the guitars.

Guild gives me the most "value", or so it seems to me. I'm not putting the other guitars down, they are clearly beautiful extremely well-made instruments, and I would love to own one.

And Brad, I must say that an Artist Award is still on my list of guitars to try. It is one of the few I have not tried yet. There is a local store near me and the owner has one, he keeps talking about selling it, but has yet to hang it up in his store. Like you, he is very attached to it. Every time he thinks of selling it, he plays it, and then says "No way!". And of course, I keep telling him to show it to me, but no luck so far...

walrus

 

[fronobulax]

This is an interesting contrast to, say, why a professional violinist wants a Stradivarius... People shell out small fortunes to own one of these 300 or so instruments, and clearly the limited supply of them makes for a different market than modern guitars. But do these violins actually sound better in some way than others? I don't know; I'm just throwing that out there. DOes the fact that they're 300+ years old matter either?

Funny you should bring this up. I was killing time at someone's house and there was a magazine article about violins. It is here and the short answer is yes - the vintage violins are better. It notes that not all instruments made by Stradivarius are of "star quality" and that "If everyone thinks that old instruments are best, then a self-respecting virtuoso will want to play one because it is expected of him."

I'm not sure exactly how to apply this to guitars. Stradivarius made about 1,100 instruments and about 650 have survived. He catered to the rich and powerful of his day. Presumably, the guitar equivalent would be the instruments of a boutique luthier. We just don't know who is making the instruments that will survive and be prized in a couple hundred years.

 

[adorshki]

and the short answer is yes - the vintage violins are better. It notes that not all instruments made by Stradivarius are of "star quality" ..
We just don't know who is making the instruments that will survive and be prized in a couple hundred years.

That hits right on one of the first things I thought when I read this thread: we're all looking at tone/playability/quality of materials but how about useful lifetime as an element of "value"? Which you've finally addressed, thanks Frono. Within a couple of months of buying my D25 I was absolutely positive the instrument would be worthy of handing down from generation to generation, you could just tell it was going to last and be worth any required maintenance it might need.
I actually bought the other two because the price was right at the time, although each had something that intially attracted me. I simply knew that I would come to appreciate them more with time simply because I trusted Guild to make a quality product (there's that "brand loyalty" thing) and I believe(d) that sometimes YOU have to adjust to the the guitar and not expect the guitar to do all the work!
I would say however that quality of build and materials will go a LONG way towards evaluating expected useful life of an instrument, and can be evaluated by a knowledgable buyer, and we all seem to agree that Guild offers a particularly good value by this measure.

 

[Frosty]

... Guild acoustics, I think my appreciation for these... lies in their high value.

I'll sign on to that too.