HArd to play 1987 D-50

[Andy Hiwatt]

Hi, I've got some problems with my 1987 D-50 that I bought last summer.
When I got hold of the guitar ,bought on e-bay , I didn't like the action and the feeling of the neck, it felt the action was way too low, the neck was very tight and I found the neck a little bit thin and uncomfortable compared to that of my 1982 D-25 ( I have medium-big hands with long fingers). After half an hour playing the instrument my hands get really tired and I feel the guitar is not playing at its best.
After a personal set up of the trussrod ( I know how to do it ,normally) things remained more or less the same, so I decided to bring the guitar to my luthier wondering whether to change the saddle or whatever else to make the guitar more playable.
The frets weren't very worn, just a little bit of wear on the first 3 frets, being the guitar 20 years old. The luthier proceeded to reset the fretboard and told me that the standard original frets on this model are in his opinion not big enough for comfortable action and bendings and smooth easy action, and suggested to change the frets with bigger ones.
At this point I'm a bit confused: now the guitar with thinner frets after the resetting of the fretboard is even more difficult and uncomfortable to play than before ,but I'd like to be sure things will really improve by changing the frets installing bigger ones.
Anyone had any similar experience?? Any suggestions to make it more playable without changing the frets???
I love the tone of the guitar but it's really a pain to play....

 

[jp]

Hey there Andy,
I've always read that if a neck is too thin for someone's hands it causes the fatigue that you describe. I would assume that changing the size of the frets will not change that factor at all. Hate to say it, but if the neck profile doesn't work for you, nothing short of a whole new neck or guitar will change that.

Has anyone else here ever heard or experienced differently?

 

[capnjuan]

Hey there Andy, I've always read that if a neck is too thin for someone's hands it causes the fatigue that you describe. I would assume that changing the size of the frets will not change that factor at all. Hate to say it, but if the neck profile doesn't work for you, nothing short of a whole new neck or guitar will change that. Has anyone else here ever heard or experienced differently?

The same principle about smaller necks applies to tennis racquet grips that are too small in diameter; player squeezes the grip too tightly fatiguing the wrist and forearm. cj

 

[GardMan]

Andy, Before I paid for a complete re-fret (which will run you $200-350, at least around here), I would try a couple things.

First, see if there are any other simple changes... I think there are a lot of factors, many of them personal, upon which the "playability" ...ease of play... of a guitar depends. Of my (currently) five dreads, my D-25 is the toughest to play (and it's not that bad). It has a bit chunkier necky, with a slightly different taper... just doesn't seem fit my hands as well. The finish on the D-25 neck also isn't as slick as that on my other dreads... sort of grabs at your thumb as you slide on down. That, and I high nut made it work to play, originally. But I love the way it sounds... So, I had the nut height dropped a bit (an easy job for a competant luthier, costing little or nothing)... that, and learning that it plays better after the neck has been wiped down/polished really improved its disposition (tho' it still doesn't feel as fast as any of my other dreads). If you find it especially hard to play open chords, barring an F at the first fret, for example... and that it plays better for you capo'd up just one fret, I would suspect a high nut. The first thing I had to do with my "new" D-46 was have the nut height dropped a bit... immediately improving its playability.

Maybe it's sacrilagious, but I also use a capo 90% of the time. 90% of the time, its because I want to match the pitch of my voice without changing a particular chording/picking pattern, but there are a couple of tunes I play where I have transposed the key just so I can use a capo, either to move down the neck to where string spacing is a bit wider (so my not so thin fingers have a little more space to fit between strings), or to where the frets are closer to together (so my not so long fingers don't have to stretch as far).

The other thing I would do is to search out another Guild with jumbo frets... they will probably be the higher end models, like and F-50 or a D-55 (my D-55 has jumbos), and see how it feels to you. Its my understanding that jumbos are wider, but sometimes lower, than what is probably on your D-50. I don't really feel a major difference in my dreads that I can attribute to fret width... rather, I think it is largely a matter of neck width, action, and finish that make my guitars different in "neck speed" and playability.

Good luck! Dave

 

[JerryR]

Maybe it's sacrilagious, but I also use a capo 90% of the time. 90% of the time, its because I want to match the pitch of my voice without changing a particular chording/picking pattern, but there are a couple of tunes I play where I have transposed the key just so I can use a capo, either to move down the neck to where string spacing is a bit wider (so my not so thin fingers have a little more space to fit between strings), or to where the frets are closer to together (so my not so long fingers don't have to stretch as far).

Sacrilige be b@#gger~d - that's what its for :mrgreen:

 

[Jeff]

The other thing I would do is to search out another Guild with jumbo frets... they will probably be the higher end models, like and F-50 or a D-55 (my D-55 has jumbos), and see how it feels to you. Its my understanding that jumbos are wider, but sometimes lower, than what is probably on your D-50. I don't really feel a major difference in my dreads that I can attribute to fret width... rather, I think it is largely a matter of neck width, action, and finish that make my guitars different in "neck speed" and playability

Biggest frets I've ever seen on a Guild are on my GF 60. Big fat Gibson style frets. Noticeably bigger than all the others.

Neck is on the thin side, chunky would not be an accurate descriptor.

Not positive but I would assume the frets on this ebay GF 50 are similar.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... :IT&ih=020

 

[kentukblue]

My 1985 D25 has bigger frets than my 2000 DV52. Honestly i think the d25's bigger frets make it easier on me..IMO. My DV52's are wide and flatter. You can run up and down the neck smoothly but I like to be able to feel the frets when i go over them.

 

[kitniyatran]

Did you explain to the luthier what your nits were before he did the work? Changing the string slots can make a big difference: make a small neck feel bigger, or a big neck feel smaller. String spacing & position on the board make a big difference.

 

[Andy Hiwatt]

Thanks everybody, I got useful suggestions from everyone .
I'll talk to the luthier in a few days and see what he thinks about changing the nut ,in my case with a higher one (with different string spacing)as I feel the action is really too low and this makes the neck too tight and uncomfortable . When the luthier reset the fretboard and the frets he also polished the back of the neck,so that is ok now.
Hopeto get through the whole situation soon, I'll let everybody know..

 

[Bikerdoc]

Another "ebay" drawback not being able to play the guitar first but GAS is a curious thing isn't it. :lol:

I have a question: I have a few guitars and neck width makes for some obvious challenges when I'm playing, i.e. ache in my palm. finger cramps, etc.

What does one feelb(what are you describing) when the "neck is too tight"?

 

[Andy Hiwatt]

Well, actually before I bought the D-50 on e-bay I tried 2 D-50 in a store here in Rome, Italy where I live, but unfortunately they weren't '80s models ,so the necks were totally different from the one I got that was made in 1987. I love the guitar tone, the woods ,the ebony fretboard and it was a real bargain, I still don't regret buying it,it's just that I 'd like to set it at its best and to play it without getting tired hands after a while.
what I mean for the neck is 'too tight" (excuse me if I can't find the right words,but I'm from Italy, English is not my main language or a mother tongue to me..) is that even if I tried to set the trussrod( and the luthier tried too) the action is not comfortable..it looks like the guitar is tuned 1 tone higher than the standard tuning with very tight strings....the strings are also very low making bendings and fretting not very easy...

As I said yesterday I'll talk to the luthier in asome days and hope to get trough the problems somehow...

 

[GardMan]

What strings are you using? You might consider changing to a different brand (some might seem stiffer than others)... If you are using mediums, perhaps try going to lights... or to bluegrass gauge (treble strings are light gauge, bass strings are medium), if you want more punch in the bass.

 

[california]

Hey there Andy, I've always read that if a neck is too thin for someone's hands it causes the fatigue that you describe. I would assume that changing the size of the frets will not change that factor at all. Hate to say it, but if the neck profile doesn't work for you, nothing short of a whole new neck or guitar will change that. Has anyone else here ever heard or experienced differently?

The same principle about smaller necks applies to tennis racquet grips that are too small in diameter; player squeezes the grip too tightly fatiguing the wrist and forearm. cj

Great analogy. I have an inexpensive hollow body electric whigh is perfect in every wa except for one area -- the neck is too narrow. Like Andy, after playing for a while, especially when figuring Jazz chords it gets very uncomfortale. For years I played tennis with a 4 1/2 grip, and while it was supposed to be correct, something wasn't quite right. As soon as I changed to a 4 5/8 I was gripping the racket better with a firmer grip. Andy -- maybe the answer is switch to a jumbo 12 string!

 

[capnjuan]

... For years I played tennis with a 4 1/2 grip, and while it was supposed to be correct, something wasn't quite right. As soon as I changed to a 4 5/8 I was gripping the racket better with a firmer grip. Andy -- maybe the answer is switch to a jumbo 12 string!

Hi Dave: at the risk of veer; the small grip promotes a false sense of control particularly if you play a lot of topspin but the too-small grip also promotes shallow, off-center mis-hits traceable to arm fatigue. If I was you Andy, I'd go and audition several different guitars to see if there was a neck profile I liked better before I'd sink money into frets especially where the chance of a fix is a little on the iffy side. cj

 

[Andy Hiwatt]

What strings are you using? You might consider changing to a different brand (some might seem stiffer than others)... If you are using mediums, perhaps try going to lights... or to bluegrass gauge (treble strings are light gauge, bass strings are medium), if you want more punch in the bass.

On the D-50 I'm using light gauge (o12-054) Martin SP strings, I 've been thinking about changing gauge and using ultra light (010-047) strings but on my 1982 Guild D-25 with a fatter neck I use the same Martin Sp 012-054 and everything it's ok:good action and no tired hands...
I also came to the conclusion that sometimes even cheap models or brands have better neck profiles than expensive guitars:I have 7 electric guitars (Gibson, gretsch, Ricks and so on )with very good necks but one of the best for my hands is the neck of a 1995 Epiphone Les Paul Standard..even when I graduated to the real Les Paul Gibson I couldn't get rid of the Epiphone because the neck feels just perfect. Guilds apart my 3rd acoustic is an early eighties cheap japanese copy of a Martin d28 named SAKURA,nice instrument but medium-low laminated tonewoods..but,again,the neck profile and construction is perfect and suits my hands very well...

 

[GardMan]

Andy... I think necks can even vary between individual guitars of the same model, or (as in your case, since you tested earlier D-50s) year to year. Until recently, I had two D-35s, a '72 and a '78 (just sold the '78). Their necks were noticeably different. The '72 is slimmer, very similar in feel to my D-55 (tho' frets and action are clearly different). The '78 was quite a bit chunkier, and had a different taper (seemed to really beef up past the 7th fret)... more like my '74 D-25, but even different than that.

Along that train of thought... one of the reasons I focused on early '70s era Guilds when I started looking for more guitars 18 months ago was to match the neck profile and playability of my '72 D-35 (which I have played for 35 years) as much as possible. It's really a breeze to play, and I wanted to be able to go back and forth between several guitars with ease, without having to adjust my left hand style (or lack thereof) too much. Often when I pick up someone elses guitar, or play something in a shop, I find myself pressing to hard, or not hard enough... buzzing, or just getting worn out... the neck just feels strange. So, I picked up two '74s, a D-25M (arched mahogany) and a G-37Bld (arched maple). The G-37 neck is very fine, smooth and fast... it plays much like the D-35 or D-55. But the D-25 has a chunkier neck, sort of "grabby" finish... making it a bit more work to play. What I did discover was how wonderfully different they all sounded... leading me on my further quest to explore the different tone woods, picking up a '92 D-55 (rosewood) last February, and an '81 D-46 (ash) last month. Interestingly (to me), the D-46 neck feels wider (but not thicker) to me... I even measured to confirm that it still has the standard 1-11/16" nut... but has a nice consistent taper and slick finish, so is an easy player. With these five, I find I can switch back and forth w/o having to adjust too much... tho' I bet I could tell them all apart blindfolded, by the feel of their necks (definitely by their sound).

 

[Andy Hiwatt]

Yes Gardman
I totally agree with you about the differences between models and same models year after year.
Thanks for the suggestions and advices on various Guilds..the problem for me it's that here in Italy we 've never seen many of the beautiful Guilds you mention,I couldn't never find or try such models here.Last summer I spent one month in the USA and tried many different guitars in many different stores, trying to keep impressions in mind.. Normally in the stores in Italy we only find D-25s D-40s D-55s and sometimes D-50s, nothing else. I 'm very interested in guitars generally and love Guilds , I bought the Guild book to study different vintage models and I started looking on e-bay one year ago ,finding my first 2 Guilds..even without trying it before buying I was lucky with my D-25..sounds good and suits my hands. I will follow your suggestions about specific years and models should I need another Guild on e-bay,it's very good to know in advance which kind of neck width to expect....
In teh next future I'd like to find a good DV52,but I have no idea which kind of neck it might have, and then a 12 strings model ..

 

[Andy Hiwatt]

Well,as promised,here I am to tell the Forum the good news about my D-50.
I started this post asking suggestions to make it easier to play, being a 1987 model it's got a thinner neck than usual and had a nut with very close strings spacing plus a replacement saddle very low ...
All this made the guitar very hard to play for me,causing me hands fatigue and not a very clean picking style..
well...I got it back from the luthier today and it's like a brand new reborn instrument.
As suggested from some of you, the first thing the luthier did was installing a new taller bone nut with a wider spacing,that makes a big difference in the fretboard ..it feels a lot wider and it's very easy now to pick strings and to strum clean chords. Then He installed a new taller bone saddle and adjusted the trussrod.
The guitar now plays a lot louder ,even when I play finger picking it,the higher notes are very bright, present and ringing, the bass notes are deep and powerful,and the new action feels great and suits my hand and my playing style better.
All this really made my day,lately I was a bit hopeless about this beautiful D-50, I felt it could be a great guitar but it sounded kind of "turned off",now I 'm really falling in love with its big balanced sound,and the playbility.
A friend of mine, proud owner of a great sounding Martin HD 28V was with me this morning and was blown away from the sound He heard from the reborn D-50.....I guess He 's just the first of a long list from now on..

 

[dtripper]

I came to this forum because I seem to have the exact problem with my new D50. Hard to fingerpick, strings feel too low, notes seem to deaden slightly. It appears I came to the right place at the right time! I thought it was a matter of getting used to after playing my old Takamine for twenty plus years. I too thought of going for larger frets but I will now go for the higher saddle and nut with the strings set wider as Andy has done. I hope this does it. I want to pick up this new, beautiful guitar and love playing it with ease.