Guild SF & Gibson EB2

[idealassets]

I see that the Starfire bass looks quite similar to the Gibson EB2 of the same vintage. I suppose these 2 were competing models at the time.

The Gibson has a pick guard (or fingernail guard), but not the Stafire. Is there something about bass playing where the pick guard is not that important?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iAlX9-AM5FA&feature=related

Craig

 

[fronobulax]

For starters, a lot of bassists don't use picks and thus have no need for a pick guard. I don't think I have ever heard of a bassist who groomed their fingernails in order to pick with them. With my technique, which is not great, I would never get a finger near an EB-2 pick guard.

I will note that Guilds had thumb or finger rests on the single pickup Starfires.

The presence, absence, and location of them can assist in dating a bass.

The most common wear pattern I have seen is by the thumb rest (and it is barely visible above) but I have seen a couple with wear at the finger rest, as seen in below. (PU is not original).

 

[krysh]

they look similar but sound completely different.

edit: well, not completely but each have a very different character.

 

[mellowgerman]

Guild > Gibson :wink:

 

[idealassets]

OK, I'm closer to getting the Guild. For guitar I no longer have an anchor finger used for finger picking. I switched over to a position that floats above the strings after some mentoring from a great calssical guitarist.

I will most likely use a similar hand/finger position for bass in order to pluck the bass strings similar to finger pick guitar (no pick). This will put my mind at ease about wearing the finish off a nice bass. It is not beneath my dignity to take a few bass lessons at the local studio.

So I'm not so certain that I care about a pick guard on a bass. I noticed Jack Cassady is now using an Ephiphone hollow body bass. I hope that he still has a few of his Alembec Starfires around. One should be in a Guild guitar museum.

Craig

 

[mellowgerman]

OK, I'm closer to getting the Guild. For guitar I no longer have an anchor finger used for finger picking. I switched over to a position that floats above the strings after some mentoring from a great calssical guitarist.

I will most likely use a similar hand/finger position for bass in order to pluck the bass strings similar to finger pick guitar (no pick). This will put my mind at ease about wearing the finish off a nice bass. It is not beneath my dignity to take a few bass lessons at the local studio.

So I'm not so certain that I care about a pick guard on a bass. I noticed Jack Cassady is now using an Ephiphone hollow body bass. I hope that he still has a few of his Alembec Starfires around. One should be in a Guild guitar museum.

Craig

The Guilds have a much more defined, clear sound. Very woody and round but not as muddy as the Gibsons tend to be. Coveted as THE bass by many of us here. Also, a starfire will almost definitely cost less than an EB-2.
Jack's original modded starfire (yggdrasil) was stolen in 1969 sometime after woodstock. His 2nd starfire (sunburst) ended up in the rock and roll hall of fame as far as I know. To my knowledge he still has one unmodded SFB-II in his posession.

 

[fronobulax]

So I'm not so certain that I care about a pick guard on a bass. I noticed Jack Cassady is now using an Ephiphone hollow body bass. I hope that he still has a few of his Alembec Starfires around. One should be in a Guild guitar museum.

Craig

I'm not going to get this quite right but I know there are at least two posters who don't seem to mind correcting me and I don't mind at all:wink:

Technically the Cassady Starfires would be pre-Alembic or proto-Alembic. They were modded before the company was formed although the people who had the ideas and did the work ended up with Alembic. One of the modded Starfires was stolen in the late 60's and hasn't surfaced. A replacement is either in his possession or in the Rock and Roll Museum. I have a recollection that there were two replacement Starfires although I don't think they both were modded.

The JC Sig model is a longer scale than a Starfire and has a low impedance pickup. I don't think you compare a Starfire and a JC Sig too closely because at some point they really are different beasts, or so I've been told.

I suspect you would want to read this interview because it seems to be the source of most of my recollections.

 

[bassmyf]

The Guilds have a much more defined, clear sound. Very woody and round but not as muddy as the Gibsons tend to be. Coveted as THE bass by many of us here. Also, a starfire will almost definitely cost less than an EB-2.
Jack's original modded starfire (yggdrasil) was stolen in 1969 sometime after woodstock. His 2nd starfire (sunburst) ended up in the rock and roll hall of fame as far as I know. To my knowledge he still has one unmodded SFB-II in his posession.

Besides the Bi-Sonics being far superior to the Gibson Mudbuckers on the EB-2, the Starfire gets much of its tone and sustain from the wood block thru the body, which the Gibson doesn`t have. I suspect thats why you dont see many Dark Stars being installed in EB-2s..

 

[idealassets]

the Starfire gets much of its tone and sustain from the wood block thru the body

So a Starfire I or II bass is very similar to a starfire IV guitar, with the wood insert to control feedback?

I appreciate all the great info sources that you are all sharing.

This is great stuff. One thing is for certain, when the locals hear a nice Guild guitar, they all really like the look and the sound. I always need to dispell a few urban legends about them along the way. I am convinced that the SF basses are the coolest of them all, except for possibly the F412 & F512, which is not really a fair comparison to make.

 

[gilded]

Besides the Bi-Sonics being far superior to the Gibson Mudbuckers on the EB-2, the Starfire gets much of its tone and sustain from the wood block thru the body, which the Gibson doesn`t have. I suspect thats why you dont see many Dark Stars being installed in EB-2s..

That's news to me. Every EB2 or 2D I've played is a semi-solid instrument (just like a Starfire guitar or bass, just like an ES-335 guitar), so I'd be interested to know where you're getting your info.

If you look at the tail-piece on an EB2, you will see that it's just like a Les Paul stop-tailpiece and/or bridge-tailpiece (at least in the way the mechanism works); anchors with female threaded bolt receptacles driven into a solid body center-section and threaded bolts suspending the tailpiece-bridge to the top. You couldn't do that if you didn't have the semi-solid center section, a la 335.

Another difference to consider: A friend of mine told me that there was a cap in the Gibson EB2 circuit that cut out all the highs & that if you disconnected/removed said cap, the bass would sound a lot better, with 'better' being full range, trebl-ier, etc. The baritone switch on some EB2s really 'sucks', too.

I'm reluctant to spend a lot of time trying to describe the difference in sound between the Starfire Bass and the EB2 basses because I never A/B'd the two basses with identical strings or with the the cap removed from the EB2. I have some ideas about the sound difference, but I'm sure there are people who know more about the difference than me, so I'm staying out of this one for the most part....

Also, people seem to ask a lot for Gibson EB basses, but I never see them go for much out of the $1500-2000 range without being a custom color. I would think that a way cool '60's SFB II would out-price a '60's Gibson EB2 by a lot.

Finally, my keyboardist also plays bass with us on about a third of our songs. As luck would have it, he owned a beautiful '68 EB2 from 1968 to 2008. He almost never played it with our group. It was all thud-thud, mud-mud.

Around the time he sold it, I got my '66 SFB-I with the pickup near the bridge. The keyboardist loves the SF bass, as do I. In fact, we used to argue over who would play the SF bass for certain songs in the band.

I can tell you this. Starfire Basses Rule!!

 

[fronobulax]

That's news to me. Every EB2 or 2D I've played is a semi-solid instrument (just like a Starfire guitar or bass, just like an ES-335 guitar), so I'd be interested to know where you're getting your info.

I was all set to rise to that bait but..

In my case I was remembering what Jack Casady said here but when I went back to quote chapter and verse, it turns out that the Gibson he was saying was a true hollow body was the Les Paul Signature and not the EB-2. Maybe I'm not the only one who thinks all Gibson basses are the same :wink:

 

[mellowgerman]

Yup, I too am pretty sure that EB-2's are semi hollows. Still... doesn't change the fact that: Starfire > EB-2 :mrgreen:

 

[krysh]

Yup, I too am pretty sure that EB-2's are semi hollows. Still... doesn't change the fact that: Starfire > EB-2 :mrgreen:

YEAH! :mrgreen:

 

[bassmyf]

Besides the Bi-Sonics being far superior to the Gibson Mudbuckers on the EB-2, the Starfire gets much of its tone and sustain from the wood block thru the body, which the Gibson doesn`t have. I suspect thats why you dont see many Dark Stars being installed in EB-2s..

That's news to me. Every EB2 or 2D I've played is a semi-solid instrument (just like a Starfire guitar or bass, just like an ES-335 guitar), so I'd be interested to know where you're getting your info.

If you look at the tail-piece on an EB2, you will see that it's just like a Les Paul stop-tailpiece and/or bridge-tailpiece (at least in the way the mechanism works); anchors with female threaded bolt receptacles driven into a solid body center-section and threaded bolts suspending the tailpiece-bridge to the top. You couldn't do that if you didn't have the semi-solid center section, a la 335.

Another difference to consider: A friend of mine told me that there was a cap in the Gibson EB2 circuit that cut out all the highs & that if you disconnected/removed said cap, the bass would sound a lot better, with 'better' being full range, trebl-ier, etc. The baritone switch on some EB2s really 'sucks', too.

I'm reluctant to spend a lot of time trying to describe the difference in sound between the Starfire Bass and the EB2 basses because I never A/B'd the two basses with identical strings or with the the cap removed from the EB2. I have some ideas about the sound difference, but I'm sure there are people who know more about the difference than me, so I'm staying out of this one for the most part....

Also, people seem to ask a lot for Gibson EB basses, but I never see them go for much out of the $1500-2000 range without being a custom color. I would think that a way cool '60's SFB II would out-price a '60's Gibson EB2 by a lot.

Finally, my keyboardist also plays bass with us on about a third of our songs. As luck would have it, he owned a beautiful '68 EB2 from 1968 to 2008. He almost never played it with our group. It was all thud-thud, mud-mud.

Around the time he sold it, I got my '66 SFB-I with the pickup near the bridge. The keyboardist loves the SF bass, as do I. In fact, we used to argue over who would play the SF bass for certain songs in the band.

I can tell you this. Starfire Basses Rule!!

It certainly wouldn`t be the first ( or last ) time I`m wrong Harry, but I was always under the impression that the EB-2 only had a mounting block under the bridge. I actually tried to find some documentation before my original post but couldn`t. All the Guild specs mention the center block, but the Gibson ads do not. Guess that doesn`t prove the negitive. My first and only Gibson bass was an EB3 solid body back around 1970, and I couldn`t figure out why I didn`t sound like Phil Lesh. Like they say " too soon old, and too late smart"....

 

[fronobulax]

My first and only Gibson bass was an EB3 solid body back around 1970, and I couldn`t figure out why I didn`t sound like Phil Lesh. Like they say " too soon old, and too late smart"....

(hint, hint) :wink:

 

[gilded]

[It certainly wouldn`t be the first ( or last ) time I`m wrong Harry, but I was always under the impression that the EB-2 only had a mounting block under the bridge. I actually tried to find some documentation before my original post but couldn`t. All the Guild specs mention the center block, but the Gibson ads do not. Guess that doesn`t prove the negitive. My first and only Gibson bass was an EB3 solid body back around 1970, and I couldn`t figure out why I didn`t sound like Phil Lesh. Like they say " too soon old, and too late smart"....

Aw, maybe I'm wrong, bassmyf, but I just think back to how heavy all those eb2 basses were over the years and I believe I'm on the right track with the semi-solid thing. I just googled under 'gibson eb2 semi solid'. Try that and see what you come up with.

Hey, my first bass that I owned was an eb3, too! I remember sitting in the audience at a festival in NYC back in the '70's. Guitar player Jim Hall was playing with a cool electric bass player. I forget his name, but that guy was Jim's duo partner a lot back then. The guy was playing a Fender Jazz and getting a dynamite tone. I remember that I was sitting with my bass teacher. I leaned over and said, 'can I get that kind of tone with my eb3'? The teacher laughed and said, "No!" Thus ended the EB3 Saga in my life...

 

[fronobulax]

Speaking of EB-3's...

Two shot's of mgod's modified EB-3 which make an interesting comparison to Phil Lesh's linked to above.

 

[jte]

Speaking of EB-3's...

Two shot's of mgod's modified EB-3 which make an interesting comparison to Phil Lesh's linked to above.

Those batwing pickguards and trim look much like John Cipollina's SG, don't they?

 

[Happy Face]

You know what? I bought a Dark-Starred EB-3 back on the Pitt. It was stripped & stained. I had thought seriously about having someone paint it up like Phil's EB-3 or even Clapton's SG. Finally just seemed to be too much of a hassle, especially since a real friend of mine wanted the bass.

He still uses it (out in the Berkshires) and still gets a regular flow of compliments about the sound.

I found it to be pretty similar with my DS'd JS-II. Just liked the JS neck better. And, the tone knobs on the JS have more effect.

 

[hieronymous]

I own several Gibson basses. One is a red EB-2:

These basses are definitely not "versatile" but they do what they do like no other bass can! The neck position "mudbucker" delivers a big hot mess of bass frequencies ONLY unless of course you hit the button and then it gets thin sounding - this is actually the position that some people used, but I like this bass for the torrents of mudd that it spews. I've used it successfully with an acoustic duo who actually played really loud through a PA - the EB-2 worked perfectly, giving a nice fat bottom that didn't get in the way at all. I also like the way it pushes distortion pedals.

I've also got a Gibson Melody Maker Bass - one of their budget models but the pickup is the same. Here's a track I did with it - it's going through a Z Vex Woolly Mammoth and Moog low-pass filter:

http://soundcloud.com/hieronymous-seven/terminous

The other Gibson I own is a Les Paul Triumph. This one is totally different than the other "early" Gibson basses - it was designed by Les Paul himself with low-impedance pickups, lots of controls (too many?), short scale, etc. It's almost Alembic-like. I just recorded with it the other day and had a lot of fun!