Guild A/E pickups

[jazzmang]

Guys,

I'm gonna vent. I'm not a huge fan of the pickup systems that Guild uses now (DTAR).

I know that some of you strongly dislike the Taylor expression system, but I think it clearly beats out any other piezo-based pickup I've ever used.

As much as I was disappointed with the sheer acoustic sound of my Taylor, I have to admit that I loved the sound of the 9V System. Its smooth and 'bubble gummy' and although its very 'magnetic' sounding, its still quite pleasing.

Now, it makes me wonder why Guild hasn't looked into different pickups. I personally prefer magnetic style pickups, and I'd like to see Guild try and make an expression system-ish pickup system.

Relatedly, whats an installable pickup that would closely emulate the expression system's sonic characteristics?

 

[kostask]

Guys,

I'm gonna vent. I'm not a huge fan of the pickup systems that Guild uses now (DTAR).

I know that some of you strongly dislike the Taylor expression system, but I think it clearly beats out any other piezo-based pickup I've ever used.

As much as I was disappointed with the sheer acoustic sound of my Taylor, I have to admit that I loved the sound of the 9V System. Its smooth and 'bubble gummy' and although its very 'magnetic' sounding, its still quite pleasing.

Now, it makes me wonder why Guild hasn't looked into different pickups. I personally prefer magnetic style pickups, and I'd like to see Guild try and make an expression system-ish pickup system.

Relatedly, whats an installable pickup that would closely emulate the expression system's sonic characteristics?

Jazzmang:

I am a huge believer in the DTAR pickup system. The reasons are:

1. While being an Under Saddle Transducer (UST), it does seem to avoid the infamous "piezo quack" that is a common complaint of UST systems in general. Now, I have read Rick Turner's articles on the reason for the quack, and whether he is right or not, the system does seem to work really well in almost all of the DTAR equipped guitars I have heard. This has been exclusively in aftermarket DTAR installations, and when properly done, sounds really good to me, whether fingerpicked, or strummed vigorously. The feedback resistance is as per most UST systems, really good unless at stadium rock levels of volume.

2. I do NOT like the electric guitar sound of magnetic pickups. Quite plainly, if I wanted to have my acoustic guitar sound like an electric, I would use an electric. The Taylor system is no exception, and Taylor has gone a very long, complex way to essentially duplicate the sound of a Baggs M1. With all the wiring, multiple vibration sensors, embedded magnetic pickup in the neck, and electronics by Rupert Neve, they have gotten to the same point as a Baggs M!, and in my opinion, an inferior sound to the DTAR. The Expression system does not really reveal any body resonances, the "woody" sound that is the acoustic guitar sound played without amplification. I believe the M1, an installable system is as good as a Taylor expression system, and that the DTAR, amongst a few others (K & K, B Band, the the LR Baggs iBeam (in lower volume applications)) are sonically superior. You may find the "electric guitar pickup sound" of the Expression system, or magnetic pickups in general, to be acceptable, I do not.

3. If the actual sound produced by the DTAR system is not good enough, just team it with the Mama Bear outboard processor. This combination is in my opinion, unbeatable by any other current pickup system/processor, and at a price far lower than the expression system. While any other UST system, or magnetic pickup can be used by Mama Bear, I do believe that the DTAR system is a preferred system to have if you intend to play without the Mama Bear; its just a bonus that it works well with the Mama Bear. The Mama Bear is not usable with the Expression system, or with the Sound Board Transducers (K&K, LR Baggs iBeam).

Quite honestly, while your preference may be for a Taylor Expression system, there are very good sounding DTAR systems out there. A luthier friend of mine installed two DTAR systems in a local players OM-42, and D-35. These guitars are used in a bluegrass/country environment, as well as solo fingerpicking styles, by an extremely picky player. In both cases, he was ecstatic with the end result, and further purchased a Mama Bear. They are now inseparable. He quite simply will not go on stage with any other guitars, or without the Mama Bear. Sound men have told him that they have seen a lot of processor boxes, and up until he showed up with the Mama Bear, they didn't ever see any value in any of them. Two sound men have actually bought Mama Bear units themselves, and will be using them to improve guitar tone for some of the guitarists they work with.

Guild did look into pickup systems, and has picked the DTAR as being the best. They are certainly not going to design an in-house system when perfectly good pickup systems exist. There are very few people in the world that have one foot in luitherie, and the other in electronics design, combined with a great ear for tone that Rick Turner does (Rick Turner builds electric guitars (Renaissance), acoustic guitars, and other fretted instruments (Compass Rose), has designed/built electric guitars/basses and the pickup systems for them (Alembic), and builds strictly acoustic guitar pickups (at first with Highlander, now with DTAR)). Bob Taylor and company understand lutherie; Rupert Neve understands audio electronics, but I don't think that either one has a full grasp of pickups, especially as they relate to acoustic guitars.

I do wish they would get away from the "Lock 'n Load" battery compartment, but that is not a sound/tone issue, it is a guitar balance issue, and can be dealt with just ordering the guitar without a pickup system, and having a luthier install one after the guitar is delivered.

Kostas

 

[gilded]

Hey guys,

I like the DTAR system. It doesn't quack. It doesn't suck, either.

I've played 20 or 30 gigs with a DTAR-equipped D55, with the Lock 'n Load. I use a paracoustic DI into a 8 year old Peavey Box PA head and speakers (that's the rig I use for small, coffee-house gigs. We run two vocals, a guitar and a mic'd djembe through the PA. I have another PA that is 'bigger and better', but I'm not disposed to taking it out to a gig where 5-30 people will hear me play and throw some money in a tip jar if they want to).

Back to the DTAR:

I agree with the complaint that, as a unit, it adds significant weight to the guitar.

At first, the guitar fed back and seemed quite touchy about eq settings. I was scooping all the bass and treble notes in order to make it work. I learned from LTG members that the factory EQ settings on the Guild DTAR/L'nL guitars is pumped up on the bass and treble. I had my luthier re-set the EQ to 'flat' and have had very little trouble with feedback since that time.

I had a chance to hear someone else play my guitar, last night at the gig, for about 20 minutes. It sounded fine and clear. The dynamics that the instrument is capable of were apparent through the Pickup/Paracoustic/PA and I was quite pleased with the way the guitar sounded.

All and all, I think the DTAR is part of a good solution in the sound man-less world that I play in. I've used it successfully with a better PA (powered JBL speakers, A&H MixWiz 16 channel board, DBX DriveRack digital sound processor, etc.), a Crate 125D (an okay acoustic/electric amp that is made to mask the 'quacky-ness' of piezo-equipped guitars) and a good old Fender electric guitar amp. I think it will feedback at less than 'rock concert levels' but I don't think it's more prone to feedback than any other UST.

I used to spend a lot of money on pickups and preamps, before I realized that most of the times I play an acoustic 'electrically', I have 'zero time' to set up the sound.

Bearing that in mind, I've thought about the Mama Bear, as well as the other DTAR boxes (Solstice, Equinox?). I may look into those units someday and I'm sure that I would investigate it all more thoroughly if I were actually making money playing an acoustic. In the mean-time, I think I'll keep playing the DTAR/D55.

With regards to the Taylor Expression system, I've played them and I like them. I've never gigged with one.

I do think if I were going to get an Expression-equipped guitar, I would get a brand spanking new one. The earlier systems broke-down a lot and Expression systems have gone through several revisions. I guess people either like that system or they don't, kind of like the DTAR pickups! What did they (used to) say in Detroit? Oh, yeah, 'There's an a$$ for every seat'.

 

[john_kidder]

I've been wondering whether or not I might want to mic my DV73 - all the piezo systems I've played work to some extent, but they don't seem (to me) to really get the true acoustic sound of the guitar. And the DV73 has such a distinctive tone that I'd be unhappy with an amplified sound that was anything less.

There was some discussion on this board a couple of years ago ago about (as I recall) paired Shure powered mics in the body cavity? Any new technology or variations there?

 

[Taylor Martin Guild]

The only way that I have ever got a great acoustic sound through a PA is to use a Mic.
I blend it with a pickup for a full sound and when I pull back from the mic.
I have heard some very good reviews for the K&K pickup and if I ever use another pickup, that will be the one I choose.
I like to buy my acoustic guitars for their acoustic sound only.
If I choose to amplify it, I will use an after marker system of my choosing.
That's the best of both worlds in my opinion.

 

[gilded]

Taylor Martin Guild,

The common thread in all of my posts concerning matters 'acoustic/electric', is that you have to define your performance locale.

Are you playing in a big place, a small place? Solo act? Will you be singing, too?

Is there a sound man? If so, is he a 'chemical warrior' like most of the sound guys I know in my area? How loud is the audience? Will they be eating or drinking or talking at the same time that you are playing?

If it's one or two guys playing, microphones can sound great. Oh, they don't have to, but they can!

If it's a whole acoustic band playing, the sound situation might be fine with mic'd instruments as well, even if it's just one mike in the middle that players get closer to when it's their time to solo.

If anybody else in the band is amplified, you're gonna be in trouble with mics, sooner than later, as well as some kind of pickups.

What makes our guitars sound good acoustically, is what makes them sound bad electrically and vice versa. I know most of us know that, but at the same time, we all read about this 'super special' pickup or that 'gotta have' pre-amp without taking into account that our specific performance needs may have a tremendous impact on whether that fine-sounding mic/pre-amp/pickup will actually work for us.

I wish we could figure out a way to have posters state what kind of gig they're looking for equipment for. I think it would help people concentrate on the equipment best suited for their purpose, as opposed to buying something that won't work in their situation. Finally, I say this thinking of the thousands of dollars I've spent on acoustic/electric gear in the last 10 years. I would love it if my fellow LTGers didn't have to learn the 'expensive way'.

Any body have any ideas??

 

[jazzmang]

I had a Taylor for a short time. I was making a scratch track for a song with it.

All acoustics on this recording: http://www.lightningmp3.com/live/file.php?id=19172

...were made on a taylor 414ce with 9V ES only.

It doesn't seem particularly similar to an electric guitar's magnetic pickup, as one of you pointed out earlier.
Actually to me, it doesnt sound particularly magnetic at all.

Thoughts?

Ignore the crappy vocals. :lol:

 

[kostask]

I had a Taylor for a short time. I was making a scratch track for a song with it.

All acoustics on this recording: http://www.lightningmp3.com/live/file.php?id=19172

...were made on a taylor 414ce with 9V ES only.

It doesn't seem particularly similar to an electric guitar's magnetic pickup, as one of you pointed out earlier.
Actually to me, it doesnt sound particularly magnetic at all.

Thoughts?

Ignore the crappy vocals. :lol:

Jazzmang:

Off the top, let me say that I don't find anything wrong with the vocals.

Regarding the guitar tone, it does sound electric/magnetic to my ears. There is a definite lack of bass, the kind of bass that is present in any acoustic guitar, and what I referred to as "woodiness" in my previous email. The guitar sound is almost pure string sound, without the top or body resonances that you hear in a guitar that is played without a pickup. It is impossible to hear the character of the actual guitar, to my ears. You may, for example, want to try recording the same song with a microphone being used to pick up the guitar sound instead of the ES pickup, and compare.

This may have sounded better on the actual recording, but it will probably be impossible to get that across in a sound clip coming through the Internet. There is a lot of variation in the music players used, and the speakers that people are using to play the clip with, so that a lot of the nuances don't make it through completely. In the case here, it is all about nuances, and they may or may not be coming through. I can only judge by the sound I am hearing, and my comments are as above.

Kostas

 

[6L6]

I'm very happy with the plugged in tone of my '06 D-55/'74 D-40 (Fishman Matrix pups) and '06 D-40BJ/'06 F-412 (both equipped with Highlander ip-2 pups).

Have to say, the Taylor Expression system tone leaves me cold.

6

 

[jazzmang]

I hear ya guys. I'm interested in hearing your opinions on it.

This is the last clip I've got from the Taylor.

http://www.lightningmp3.com/live/file.php?id=19176

Just the taylor, me, and a $35 strat ripoff.

 

[Scratch]

Just two cents worth: My only gripe about DTAR is the weight/balance issue (see kostask above); just couldn't adjust to the heavy lower bout of the D55 (Now Gilded's D55) resulting from the AA batteries configuration. The CV-1 and F-40 with DTAR, are folk (Grand Orchestra) sized and, even with DTAR, are better balanced for my stool style of picking. The D-40 came with a factory installed Fishman AGP-2 which IMO is a very nice match for this guitar...

 

[kostask]

I hear ya guys. I'm interested in hearing your opinions on it.

This is the last clip I've got from the Taylor.

http://www.lightningmp3.com/live/file.php?id=19176

Just the taylor, me, and a $35 strat ripoff.

Jazzmang:

Again, with this sound clip, the same points I made in my previous posts applies.

I don't really understand your points about the "magnetic" sound, your the one who first brought it up in your original post, and you are the one who brought up the Taylor ES system in the first place:

"...but I think it clearly beats any other piezo-based pickup I have ever heard"

"... and although it is very 'magnetic' sounding, it is still quite pleasing"

later, in a second post:

"Actually, to me, it doesn't sound particularly magnetic at all"

Well, I guess that we all have our own concepts of what "magnetic" sounds like, and your two clips are exactly what I would define as being "magnetic sounding". Very fast attack, pronounced midrange and treble, lack of bass, and very little if any of the body resonance being captured. This generally is also true of the sound of electric guitar pickups (there is a reason that electric guitar bodies don't really resonate, at least not like acoustics). In the Taylor ES case, i believe it is a factor of the relative contributions of the embedded magnetic pickup (embedded near the end of the fretboard) contributing more to the overall sound than the body sensors, so you end up getting a "magnetic pickup" sound; after all, it is a magnetic pickup contributing to most of the overall sound.

Also, please note that the ES system is purely magnetic, it is not like other piezo-based pickups, because it is a magnetic pickup system, including both the pickup in the end of the fretboard, as well as the "body" sensors.

As I have suggested before, if you want to really hear the difference between what an amplified guitar should sound like, and the ES system, just record one piece of music with a microphone, and then record it again with the ES system, and compare.

I really do not understand what Taylor was trying to do with the ES system; they spent a massive amount of time and effort to essentially come up with an inferior amplified sound, certainly inferior to the DTAR, and perhaps even inferior to the LR Baggs M1/M1 Active. While they have had "designer" type people like Rupert Neve help out, they didn't really accomplish anything extraordinary. I personally think that the ES was actually the electronics part of the Taylor T5 series, and when the T5 itself was delayed, they took advantage of the already designed electronics to use on the acoustics; please note that the T5 is a semi-hollowbody electric, not a flattop acoustic.

The only person that I know of that has taken a reasoned, scientific approach to acoustic guitar amplification is Rick Turner, who actually sat down with test equipment and figured out why piezo quack was happening, and then designed his system to address it (with the 18V preamplifier), and did it so that it was the least intrusive possible (with the dual AAA battery multiplier). I disagree with the Lock n' Load system, due to its weight; but when not factory installed (as by Guild), the Lock n' Load is actually and option, not mandatory. The usual installation involves a battery module, like most piezo pickups do, with the module usually attached to the neck block. The dual AAA batteries are certainly no heavier than the equivalent 9V used in other systems, and the placement of the battery module near the neck block really doesn't alter the balance of the guitar.

Kostas

 

[jazzmang]

later, in a second post:

"Actually, to me, it doesn't sound particularly magnetic at all"

Kostas

I was commenting on the particular clip I had uploaded only. I still understand and agree that it can sound magnetic, but in this particular clip I'd uploaded, I didn't think it sounded overly magnetic, like an electric guitar... as someone had said.

 

[gilded]

Jazzmang,

If that's you playing on that clip, well that's mighty good playin'!

I think the guitar sounds fine (In fact, I'm going to go way out on a limb here and say that all of the pickups mentioned in this thread can sound fine).

I hear what kostask is saying about the bottom part of the guitar being lacking, but gosh, I like it still.
If you guys want to hear magnets, I can loan you my Sunrise pickup for comparison purposes only. I think you might be able to find a magnet or two in it!

 

[chazzan]

I have a K&K in my f-20 that sounds very good- in fact I may take out the Fishman matrix in my Mark II classical and replace it with a K&K classical pickup. The only downside of the K&K is that it feeds back when the volume is cranked, but I don't get calls for those big rock gigs anymore..........whew.

Pickups are like guitars, or something else which will not be named (to your imagination perhaps- I cannot be responsible for your thoughts however!) One man's meat is another man's poison! It's all subjective. However like fashion there are some standards....... ie good and bad piezo, magnetic, and contact acoustic guitar pickups- it's what sound you like- personally I have played and don't care for the taylor system, bottom line play and listen yourself to guitars with different systems and see how you hear them.

And of course- let us know your thoughts.