Goldtop X400 ?
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fronobulax
Bassist, GAD and the Hot Mess Mods
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Posted there by LTGer alpep. I recognize the guitar and the case in the background from LMG.
hansmoust
Enlightened Member
Hello folks,
That's an X-400G from 1955.
Most of the X-400s that I've seen were 'leftovers' from the earliest Guild period. After Guild had established its model designations during 1954, all the old superstructures that were still laying around did get hardware and pickups and most were sold outside the dealer network. Depending on when they were finished the various instruments did get period parts and consequently they are all different, even though they might carry the same model designation. Actually quite a few of those guitars were sold to teachers, who did get an extra discount and ended up with something that you couldn't buy in a store.
The 'gold' finish became available during 1954 as well and even though it was only mentioned in the price list as an option on the X-150, the gold finish was available on all models.
So far I've seen most of the models that were available during this period with the gold finish.
Here's a photo of a very cool 1954 X-175G:
It's a year earlier than the X-400G in the earlier posting.
Sincerely,
Hans Moust
http://www.guitarsgalore.nl
That's an X-400G from 1955.
Most of the X-400s that I've seen were 'leftovers' from the earliest Guild period. After Guild had established its model designations during 1954, all the old superstructures that were still laying around did get hardware and pickups and most were sold outside the dealer network. Depending on when they were finished the various instruments did get period parts and consequently they are all different, even though they might carry the same model designation. Actually quite a few of those guitars were sold to teachers, who did get an extra discount and ended up with something that you couldn't buy in a store.
The 'gold' finish became available during 1954 as well and even though it was only mentioned in the price list as an option on the X-150, the gold finish was available on all models.
So far I've seen most of the models that were available during this period with the gold finish.
Here's a photo of a very cool 1954 X-175G:
It's a year earlier than the X-400G in the earlier posting.
Sincerely,
Hans Moust
http://www.guitarsgalore.nl
hansmoust
Enlightened Member
For all of you who love that 'gold' look, here's one of the earliest ones I've seen so far:
It's from early 1954.
Sincerely,
Hans Moust
http://www.guitarsgalore.nl
It's from early 1954.
Sincerely,
Hans Moust
http://www.guitarsgalore.nl
Walter Broes
Enlightened Member
I'd completely forgotten about those gold ones. Doesn't get much cooler than that. Dave Gonzalez told me once he used to have a gold X150.
Got to see Al's gold X-400 last weekend at our factory event... Really neat guitar. I hear gold is a good investment.... 
yup that's my guitar. It sounds great acoustically and plugged in you get a bunch of cool sounds. from jazz to rockabilly to where ever you want to go with it.
I hope many of you had a chance to pick it up and give it a play.
I hope many of you had a chance to pick it up and give it a play.
Nigel Wickwire
Member
Nowadays, we'd call those 'Factory Seconds'. And when they appeared on the market we'd all run the other direction, screaming like little girls and complain about Guild devaluing the brand......................... :lol: :lol:
~nw
hansmoust
Enlightened Member
Nigel Wickwire said:
Hello Nigel,
Well, I realize this was meant as kind of a joke but 'factory seconds' are not exactly the same as the 'leftovers' from an older line that I was referring to. Not throwing away perfectly good material and/or parts and using them where they would see fit was almost company policy while Alfred Dronge was still around. And even during the years following Alfred Dronge's death, most of the 'old timers' at the Guild plant would still follow that policy, which is something that cannot be said of the more recent owners of the Guild name.
Sincerely,
Hans Moust
http://www.guitarsgalore.nl
Interesting that you brought that up, Hans. We had a pretty open conversation with Dave G. from Scottsdale at our event last week, and this subject was on our questions list and was addressed. I hope I recount this well... I apologize for veering the thread, but you guys might find this interesting.
The modern "USED" guitars, as we already knew, get sold to reclaiming facilities and then sold to the public through resellers that have nothing to do with Fender/Guild (and no warrantee). These guitars seem to fall into two categories: those that were deemed not worth fixing (blems), and those that were essentially overstock / not-easily-sold. We've seen plenty of the former in recent years, but the explosion of Contemporary Series guitars turns out to be the latter. It wasn't that these guitars were known or expected to be problematical; it's just that a surplus were built as Tacoma was winding down and I guess they weren't selling and the Contemporaries were not viewed as part of the future in New Hartford.
I don't know for sure, but I think that's the flavor of what we heard from Dave. So, I know many of us were under the wrong impression about the flood of USED Contemporaries as being some dumping of rejected guitars, and I apologize if I contributed to some of that conjecture as that's apparently not the case. The discontinuation of the line is essentially what led to the release of the stock through the reclamation process.
Also, I know this is even more of a veer, but they told us that Fender ultimately received their patents on the Contemporary neck block system (they were pat. pending at the time). Their opinion of the technology is rather high. I know there's no current plan for bolt-on necks coming out of New Hartford, but after the discussion I wouldn't be surprised to hear about it elsewhere in the future. We'll see. That's conjecture on my part, just for the record.
The modern "USED" guitars, as we already knew, get sold to reclaiming facilities and then sold to the public through resellers that have nothing to do with Fender/Guild (and no warrantee). These guitars seem to fall into two categories: those that were deemed not worth fixing (blems), and those that were essentially overstock / not-easily-sold. We've seen plenty of the former in recent years, but the explosion of Contemporary Series guitars turns out to be the latter. It wasn't that these guitars were known or expected to be problematical; it's just that a surplus were built as Tacoma was winding down and I guess they weren't selling and the Contemporaries were not viewed as part of the future in New Hartford.
I don't know for sure, but I think that's the flavor of what we heard from Dave. So, I know many of us were under the wrong impression about the flood of USED Contemporaries as being some dumping of rejected guitars, and I apologize if I contributed to some of that conjecture as that's apparently not the case. The discontinuation of the line is essentially what led to the release of the stock through the reclamation process.
Also, I know this is even more of a veer, but they told us that Fender ultimately received their patents on the Contemporary neck block system (they were pat. pending at the time). Their opinion of the technology is rather high. I know there's no current plan for bolt-on necks coming out of New Hartford, but after the discussion I wouldn't be surprised to hear about it elsewhere in the future. We'll see. That's conjecture on my part, just for the record.
hansmoust
Enlightened Member
Chazmo said:
Actually, I did not bring that up. What I was referring to had nothing to do with the 'used' guitars that flooded the market after the ending of both Corona and Tacoma production.
I was referring to the policy of getting rid of old inventory and parts because that's easier than figuring out if some of that stuff could be used for repairs of older guitars that had been made under the management of previous owners.
Sincerely,
Hans Moust
http://www.guitarsgalore.nl
hansmoust said:
Oh, gotcha', Hans. Right! A definite sore point from the end of the Westerly era. For the record, that didn't come up in our discussions with New Hartford folks... The only real history that was discussed was this little bit about Tacoma and that's about it.
fronobulax
Bassist, GAD and the Hot Mess Mods
- Joined
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<veer>FWIW I got the distinct impression that all of the USED guitars had some flaw with them. Dave was explicit in saying that Tacoma production was used to fill orders while New Hartford geared up. The reason for going USED rather than fixing them was because as Tacoma shut down there was no place to repair the flaws. Given that the USED guitars also came from lines that were being discontinued perhaps I made some assumptions that were not correct and so some guitars were just remaindered. That said, I do believe Dave G. and company are much more interested in moving forward than debating the mistakes of the past.</veer>Chazmo said:
USED guitars are sold via MIRC and they are marked that way by contract. many have flaws but many are just guitars that did not sell.
believe me or not i have been in this business a while. I know what is done in the industry
believe me or not i have been in this business a while. I know what is done in the industry
To continue the veer:
Is it fair to say that the overall experience of the LTG Folk is that all of the Contemporary Series guitars, 'that anyone here knows about', have significant problems?
I mean, that's all I've read about here at LTG. I've only heard about neck joint problems. Period. That's it. Nothing good.
If that's true, then you can bet that Fender heard about it before they made the decision to put the rest of those guitars together and ship 'em to whatever entities sold them as used.
Even if the inventory was already built, somebody knew those guitars were trouble. The fact that the guitars were shipped at all speaks ill of Fender's Corporate Culture and their apparent inability to listen to or care about feedback from their customers and warranty centers.
That's exactly how Toyota wound up building a gazillion cars with software-induced braking problems. Either they didn't care or the right feedback never got to the right people.
Is it fair to say that the overall experience of the LTG Folk is that all of the Contemporary Series guitars, 'that anyone here knows about', have significant problems?
I mean, that's all I've read about here at LTG. I've only heard about neck joint problems. Period. That's it. Nothing good.
If that's true, then you can bet that Fender heard about it before they made the decision to put the rest of those guitars together and ship 'em to whatever entities sold them as used.
Even if the inventory was already built, somebody knew those guitars were trouble. The fact that the guitars were shipped at all speaks ill of Fender's Corporate Culture and their apparent inability to listen to or care about feedback from their customers and warranty centers.
That's exactly how Toyota wound up building a gazillion cars with software-induced braking problems. Either they didn't care or the right feedback never got to the right people.
gilded said:
First of all, I think there were plenty of Contemporary Series guitars that were just fine. You've certainly heard about problem ones here, some (most?) of which were sold through the USED channel, but some were just fine.
Second, at least from what we heard, Fender doesn't think the design of the neck block system is flawed. Whether this is akin to a Toyota-like cover-up or not I will not conjecture, but that seems really farfetched to me. I think folks acknowledged some production issues with the line.
I certainly do think it's an interesting point to make about whether Fender should have ever released these guitars for reclamation or bandsawed them. Frankly, I think there's no good choice. The fact that they were overstocked with them left them with that choice. My point was that this was an overstock situation and not a blem situation... i.e., I really don't think it was just a ton of broken parts sitting around that Fender sold off... In any case, I agree that these guitars caused trouble.
Chaz',
There have been some bad designs from any number of Companies before, including Fender.
The Fender 3-Bolt Neck Join system, in place of the traditional 4 bolt system is probably a good example. After Leo retired, the New Guys took an older Leo design for correcting the neck pitch of acoustic guitars and adapted it for use with the solid-body electric line. When Leo found out about it, he told 'em not to do it, in fact informed them he'd design them something else more appropriate. The reply was, 'thanks, but no thanks.' Those of us who suffered through Three-Bolt Strats in the '70's can give you an idea how successful that application was.
Back to the present. Again, I literally don't remember any body here saying anything good about the Contemporary series neck joins. I do remember that some people who never played past the 5th fret weren't bothered by the problematical nature of the design, but, when asked to measure the string height at the 12th or 15th fret, confirmed that the action was unacceptable. I also remember the literally dozens of pages of descriptions of bad instruments and the clever fixes that a few luthiers came up with.
I also get the idea (in theory) that maybe only a few guitars were bad. I certainly have a feeling it's more than a few, but maybe I'm wrong (I thought I was wrong once last year, too, but was 'mistaken', blah blah). It's quite possible that it was a good design that needed tweeking to work in the real world.
I also mean no disrespect to the New Hartford Builders. I have been very inspired by all of the things I've read about the LMG Tour and look certainly look forward to trying out a New Hartford Guild. At the same time, that doesn't mean that I have to share some Fender employee's reverential attitude to design that received a 'Patent'. To put it bluntly, the Contemporary Series is a good reason to want to look forward to the Future and not Dwell on the Past.
What I see is a scenario where, at the end of the road for the Tacoma factory, the workers were instructed to put together a few hundred Contemporary series guitars. Maybe they're already finished, maybe not, I don't know. Let's say Guild sold 500 Contemporary Guitars to reclaimers for $500 a piece. That's $250,000, right?
So the choices were: fix 'em right, bandsaw 'em, or collect $250K and live with the bad publicity. As it happens, we already know the Choice that Management made.
It is my hope that the same Management doesn't make bad choices for New Hartford someday. I'm not talking about the New Hartford Team, I'm talking about the Management Culture that moved the Brand from Westerly to Corona to Tacoma and then to New Hartford in less than a decade. You know, those guys.....
There have been some bad designs from any number of Companies before, including Fender.
The Fender 3-Bolt Neck Join system, in place of the traditional 4 bolt system is probably a good example. After Leo retired, the New Guys took an older Leo design for correcting the neck pitch of acoustic guitars and adapted it for use with the solid-body electric line. When Leo found out about it, he told 'em not to do it, in fact informed them he'd design them something else more appropriate. The reply was, 'thanks, but no thanks.' Those of us who suffered through Three-Bolt Strats in the '70's can give you an idea how successful that application was.
Back to the present. Again, I literally don't remember any body here saying anything good about the Contemporary series neck joins. I do remember that some people who never played past the 5th fret weren't bothered by the problematical nature of the design, but, when asked to measure the string height at the 12th or 15th fret, confirmed that the action was unacceptable. I also remember the literally dozens of pages of descriptions of bad instruments and the clever fixes that a few luthiers came up with.
I also get the idea (in theory) that maybe only a few guitars were bad. I certainly have a feeling it's more than a few, but maybe I'm wrong (I thought I was wrong once last year, too, but was 'mistaken', blah blah). It's quite possible that it was a good design that needed tweeking to work in the real world.
I also mean no disrespect to the New Hartford Builders. I have been very inspired by all of the things I've read about the LMG Tour and look certainly look forward to trying out a New Hartford Guild. At the same time, that doesn't mean that I have to share some Fender employee's reverential attitude to design that received a 'Patent'. To put it bluntly, the Contemporary Series is a good reason to want to look forward to the Future and not Dwell on the Past.
What I see is a scenario where, at the end of the road for the Tacoma factory, the workers were instructed to put together a few hundred Contemporary series guitars. Maybe they're already finished, maybe not, I don't know. Let's say Guild sold 500 Contemporary Guitars to reclaimers for $500 a piece. That's $250,000, right?
So the choices were: fix 'em right, bandsaw 'em, or collect $250K and live with the bad publicity. As it happens, we already know the Choice that Management made.
It is my hope that the same Management doesn't make bad choices for New Hartford someday. I'm not talking about the New Hartford Team, I'm talking about the Management Culture that moved the Brand from Westerly to Corona to Tacoma and then to New Hartford in less than a decade. You know, those guys.....
Nigel Wickwire
Member
gilded said:
You haven't been payin' attention then. There are at least two LTG'ers that I know of, that are well satisfied with their 'Used' Contemporary series Guilds. Neck joint and all.
http://letstalkguild.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=18563
~nw
Two, huh?Nigel Wickwire said:
I am reminded of a Statement that Charlie Sheen made, as part of Sworn Testimony in the Heidi Fleiss case. When he was informed as to the exact number of Ladies of the Evening that he Dallied with, under hire as it were, from Ms. Fleiss' stable (the records indicated perhaps 50-75), Mr. Sheen observed, 'The numbers are beginning to add up.'
Nigel, my good fellow, I can only admit the same.