Fishman Loudbox

dreadnut

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I have a Fishman Loudbox Mini that I really like; it's everything I need for gigging and it's 60W, so plenty of punch for small-medium venues.

Only problem is, the brown covering isn't Tolex, it's some kind of spray-on covering I think - it's flaking off, especially under the handle. And I bought a cover with it, so I keep it covered when I'm not using it.

Anyone else have this experience?
 

silverfox103

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I have the same Fishman Loudbox Mini, which I have had for @ 4 or 5 years. I have not had any of the issues like you. I also have a cover, which I never use. But, mine never goes anywhere, it just sits in the same spot and seldom moves.

Tom
 

guitarslinger

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I have the Loudbox which I love and have the same problem. I keep mine covered as well, but, the cover is snug in a few places and rubs the finish off. Ironic that the finish is damaged by that which is supposed to protect it. Really a very poor covering.
 

silverfox103

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I have the Loudbox which I love and have the same problem. I keep mine covered as well, but, the cover is snug in a few places and rubs the finish off. Ironic that the finish is damaged by that which is supposed to protect it. Really a very poor covering.
Maybe that is why I don't have the problem, as I don't use the cover.

Tom
 

dreadnut

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I've had it for a couple years now and just discovered this problem. I though maybe I had touched it with some kind of solvent on my hands, but I found while surfing different forums that several owners have had this same problem.

Annoying, but it is a sweet little combo amp for gigging, lightweight, and it cranks out 60 Watts.
 

GuildFS4612CE

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Have any of you tried contacting Larry Fishman and reporting the issue and asking if he has any solution, perhaps a spray fixative, that can prevent further deterioration? If no one reports it to him, he might not know...and he might want to change products on any future amps...it's possible that something in the cover is interacting with the finish whatever it is...think of NCL and certain stand coverings, etc.

He's always been nice to chat with at NAMM.
 

dreadnut

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Evidently Fishman knows of the issue and isn't doing anything for owners of these amps. Hopefully they are changing the design to incorporate a higher quality covering.

[h=6]"LIFETIME LIMITED WARRANTY[/h]
Fishman amplification products (“Product”) are warranted to the original consumer purchaser to be free of defects in materials and workmanship under normal use and service for a period of one (1) year from the date of purchase."

OK, what am I not understanding about "Lifetime?"
 
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fronobulax

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Evidently Fishman knows of the issue and isn't doing anything for owners of these amps. Hopefully they are changing the design to incorporate a higher quality covering.

"LIFETIME LIMITED WARRANTY

Fishman amplification products (“Product”) are warranted to the original consumer purchaser to be free of defects in materials and workmanship under normal use and service for a period of one (1) year from the date of purchase."

OK, what am I not understanding about "Lifetime?"
If your quote is accurate in that "limited lifetime warranty" appears as a heading then any good lawyer is going to win when they claim that the warranty is actually only a year.

I should also note that there is a lot of case law concerning "lifetime warranty". There is ambiguity whether the duration is the lifetime of the original (human) purchaser or the lifetime of the corporation issuing the warranty or even the expected lifetime of the product. In general if the duration is not explicitly spelled out then the courts have tended to side with the shortest definition of 'lifetime'. That said, we have documented cases where Guild has honored the original purchaser's warranty in spite of the absence of any legal requirement to do so (because of corporate sales and bankruptcies).
 

dapmdave

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My first Mini has the crappy brown covering, and it looks pretty bad after several years of use. I do take it out to play and I suppose that's partly to blame. I've been told the later versions have a more durable covering.

My second Mini, which I found only recently, has a cabinet made of African Mahogany. No covering. I'm a bit more careful with this one. It is pristine and I hope to keep it that way.
 

adorshki

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In general if the duration is not explicitly spelled out then the courts have tended to side with the shortest definition of 'lifetime'.
Oh that took me a bit by surprise, maybe just 'cause I grew up in an era when we perceived "the courts" as being the champion of the underdog?
(Typically the consumer, thinking of Nader and the rise of "Consumer's Rights")
And maybe "surprised" because the decisions you mention are probably largely tort not civil or criminal law which don't get as much attention?
However I still get it and always understood that the "limitation" was not only in what was covered but also the lifetime of the manufacturer and/or original owner.
In this case it just occurred to me that perhaps the correct semantic interpretation of the term is that the warranty itself has a "Limited Lifetime":
One year.
:crushed:
 
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dapmdave

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Oh that took me a bit by surprise, maybe just 'cause I grew up in an era when we perceived "the courts" as being the champion of the underdog?
(Typically the consumer, thinking of Nader and the rise of "Consumer's Rights")
And maybe "surprised" because the decisions you mention are probably largely tort not civil or criminal law which don't get as much attention?
However I still get it and always understood that the "limitation" was not only in what was covered but also the lifetime of the manufacturer and/or original owner.
In this case it just occurred to me that perhaps the correct semantic interpretation of the term is that the warranty itself has a "Limited Lifetime":
One year.
:crushed:
I have come to feel that a lifetime warranty is a warranty for the lifetime of the product.
 

adorshki

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I have come to feel that a lifetime warranty is a warranty for the lifetime of the product.
I'd suspect that's still a pretty generally agreed interpretation, but what happens when a maker goes out of business before a product "dies"?
The question my dear old grandpappy asked me after explaining it to me when I was young and asked him what a warranty was.
But still, in this case it's a "limited lifetime warranty", and it only made me realize "What, exactly, is being limited?
The coverage, or the duration of the warranty?
Or both?
The way I read it, Fishman clearly laid out its rules:
"Build quality and materials are warranted to the original purchaser for a year".***
That was the standard for most auto makers for most of the history of auto warranties, too, barring wear and tear items.
In this case we have a scenario where it appears that the amp's finish hasn't lived up to the original purchaser's expectations for durability.
But I don't see any failure to fulfill their original warranty promise.
Nor do I see any reason for the original owner not to make that failure to meet his expectations known to others.
They do after all seem reasonable enough.
It's how a lot of folks rated makers "back in the day":
"Word of mouth".
And smart makers would try to address those customer concerns in a simpler world where survival was more directly related to product quality.
Some of 'em still do.
And that's not to say you mean anything different.
Just suspect somewhere along the line the corporate lawyers on retainer got wise to the need to call a warranty "limited" when it was in fact "limited"...in whatever aspect.
:smile:
***Edit:
It occurs to me now that perhaps this is exactly what Dreadnut's getting at:
Why use the term "lifetime" at all if the duration's limited to a year?
Seems to be a contradiction in terms.
In fact yeah, it is.
Blame it on evil marketing drones who want to keep capitalizing on the perceived value of the term "lifetime" even while the law team covers the corporate butt with the term "limited".
Apparently though, Frono thinks a good consumer advocate lawyer could make the "lifetime" element stick if push came to shove.
I know we got a coupla lawyers in the membership and I couldn't blame 'em for not wanting to chime in on this...
 
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dapmdave

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Why use the term "lifetime" at all if the duration's limited to a year?

In a word: Marketing
 

dreadnut

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Well, my '76 Guild D-25M came with a lifetime warranty to the original purchaser for manufacturing defects. They did repair mine for free one time several years after I purchased it, I can't even remember why any more because it was so long ago (and because my memory ain't as sharp as it used to be.) But I brought it back to my dealer, and I don't think I even had to pay for shipping to and from Westerly, and I haven't had any issues since. That's what lifetime warranty means to me. Of course, after 43 years now it would be hard to make a warranty claim based on a manufacturing defect.
 

adorshki

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Well, my '76 Guild D-25M came with a lifetime warranty to the original purchaser for manufacturing defects. They did repair mine for free one time several years after I purchased it, I can't even remember why any more because it was so long ago (and because my memory ain't as sharp as it used to be.) But I brought it back to my dealer, and I don't think I even had to pay for shipping to and from Westerly, and I haven't had any issues since. That's what lifetime warranty means to me. Of course, after 43 years now it would be hard to make a warranty claim based on a manufacturing defect.
Not quality of materials as well?
Mine covers (edit: covered , since Fender no longer owns Guild) defects and quality of materials with the exceptions for wear-and-tear items like frets.
Warranty was a big element in my decision to go with "new from a US maker" before I found my D25, and since they were owned by Fender I figured I'd never have a worry...
I mean, "Fender's never gonna die", right?
So when I noticed the bridge lift on the F65ce I took it to the local authorized repair center who advised a "wait and watch" stance at the time..sure it's remained stable but in the meantime they stopped working with Guild and Fender sold the brand and I don't expect my warranty to be honored by Cordoba.
I will count myself lucky if they honor it as a courtesy based on obvious well-kept condition, if I decide to pursue a bridge re-glue.
And I don't relish the thought of shipping it either.
So yeah I do have a dog in this fight, so to speak...
 
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fronobulax

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"Lifetime warranty" does not mean what you, the customer, think it means and you are lucky if you don't have to find that out.

Generally a warranty is a legal contract between two entities, typically the creator of a good or service and the consumer of that good or service. When the contract does not spell out explicit details or the two parties disagree on the meaning, the courts can get involved. There is a large body of case law and a company that has a competent legal staff can provide warranty language that is clear to a judge, although not necessarily to a consumer who has no legal training. As a contract, it is only valid for the "lifetime" of the shortest lived entity involved. Thus if a human dies or a corporation ceases to exist the warranty ends. People joke a lot about the "lifetime" of the product but that really means nothing. If a product does not last as long as it is expected to the warranty issue will be a defect in manufacturing and/or materials. That said there are some products where it is expected they will last for some duration but the duration is specified. i.e. 100,000 miles or 5 years, whichever comes first.

Since the basic point of a warranty is to protect the consumer from "errors" in production that are not obvious at purchase, the word "limited" is often used. There once was a time when there were many warranties that were as simple as "We made it, you bought it, if you are ever not happy, return it for a new one, no questions asked". (LL Bean and Craftsman Tools were perhaps the last major providers of that type of warranty). This kind of warranty is both expensive and easily abused and "limited" is the first clue the customer has that the warranty terms are not quite so generous.

"manufacturing and material defects" is the accepted shorthand for things that are under control of the manufacturer.

Warranties are an area where what is right and what is legal may differ. In the specific case of Guild, the lifetime of interest is the lifetime of the corporation. Depending upon how Guild was sold or reorganized, the new Guild may, or may not, have been legally responsible for the warranties issued by the old Guild. The fact that a new Guild chose to honor some warranty claims says good things about the new Guild but we must remember that they chose to honor the warranty but nothing in the public record concerning corporate sale or reorganization says they were required to honor the warranty.

I would say that Fishman did not get their moneys worth from the lawyer who reviewed the warranty statement as quoted above or from the person who proofread it before printing.
 

dreadnut

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Not quality of materials as well?
Mine covers (edit: covered , since Fender no longer owns Guild) defects and quality of materials with the exceptions for wear-and-tear items like frets.
Warranty was a big element in my decision to go with "new from a US maker" before I found my D25, and since they were owned by Fender I figured I'd never have a worry...
I mean, "Fender's never gonna die", right?
So when I noticed the bridge lift on the F65ce I took it to the local authorized repair center who advised a "wait and watch" stance at the time..sure it's remained stable but in the meantime they stopped working with Guild and Fender sold the brand and I don't expect my warranty to be honored by Cordoba.
I will count myself lucky if they honor it as a courtesy based on obvious well-kept condition, if I decide to pursue a bridge re-glue.
And I don't relish the thought of shipping it either.
So yeah I do have a dog in this fight, so to speak...
You're right Al, it was "materials and manufacturing defects."
 

dreadnut

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So, yeah, I'd have a hard time claiming warranty on my old D-25M after 43 years...LOL

But the skin peeling off my Fishman amp after only two years of limited use, that's a different story.

"Limited Lifetime Warranty" and "a period of one year after the date of purchase" mean two different things to me.

Maybe they mean "our warranty is limited to a lifetime of one year."
 

adorshki

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You're right Al, it was "materials and manufacturing defects."
Just realized that it might well have been different at that time so was more curious than anything else.
Only asked because after 10+ years of observation it's been sinking in that there's very few things that didn't change with Guild over the curse, er, course, of time.

So, yeah, I'd have a hard time claiming warranty on my old D-25M after 43 years...LOL
"In my humble opinion" the only reason it's no longer valid is because Guild's had so many changes of ownership over those 43 years.
If it was mine and Avnet (or whoever it was in '76) still owned 'em, I'd fully expect something like a loose brace or the fretboard separating from the neck to be fully covered.
I'd fully expect my F65ce's bridge lift to be covered if Fender still owned 'em, the authorized repair center had already confirmed it was definitely eligible for warranty repair after inspecting for signs of owner neglect or abuse.
The complication was in the possible need for finish touch-up subsequent to the repair, they couldn't do that in CA at the time, would have had to send it somewhere else and there was no factory repair available at that time (early New Hartford era) so suggested simply monitoring the lift.

Maybe they mean "our warranty is limited to a lifetime of one year."
Yeah, exactly what I was getting at, although Frono thinks a good lawyer could rip that up, citing a sizable body of case law where that exact issue has been contested.
It also occurred to me that another reason for using the term "limited" was in cases where the maker explicitly rules out liability for consequential damages resulting from use of their product.
Something like: "If the oven breaks while cooking and your roast is ruined, we're not liable for the cost of the roast."
Even though that's not the case here.
I agree with you, seems like 2 years is an unreasonably short lifetime for what I assume is equivalent to the paint job on the case.
I wonder, if you pushed on it, if Fishman would work with you simply for the sake of good customer relations?
I've done it with my customers, in terms of replacing paper that I believed wasn't "misused" by a customer or for which I believed the manufacturer had truly misrepresented the capabilities, even if unintentionally.
The fact that a new Guild chose to honor some warranty claims says good things about the new Guild but we must remember that they chose to honor the warranty but nothing in the public record concerning corporate sale or reorganization says they were required to honor the warranty.
A fine point regarding the sale to Cordoba specifically:
I absolutely recall at least one statement here that Cordoba would honor the warranty on New Hartford-built instruments, to the original owner who purchased it from an authorized dealer.
At the very least it answered the question of warranty on sales of existing dealer inventory of New Hartford product while the sale was in "escrow", so to speak..
Seem to recall it was a formal statement from them quoted by a highly credible source, or else "hearsay" from same, but the point is that in this case the specific issue of how much warranty liability Cordoba was assuming was addressed.
And I believe that was a reasonable enough undertaking on their part, to limit it to New Hartford production.
I'm guessing that was a condition that was part of the formal terms of sale since it also would clearly spell out that Fender no longer had any warranty liability for anything built under their ownership, and that Cordoba was in fact assuming a specific part of Fender's as part of the sale.
Whether it's something readily visible in the public record, I couldn't say.
Either way it leaves guys like me out in the lurch, at the mercy of Cordoba's good will (or lack thereof).
 
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