F112 epiphany about missing dot markers

[Guildedagain]

Reading a Guild owner's manual yesterday, an insanely informative booklet, a mini bible if you will. Many here even have probably never read one, or seen one.

It's a one size fits all booklet, and it covers the 12 string guitars, foibles of, the tension...

I'll just leave it at that.

And I realized why my F112 doesn't have any dot markers, admittedly a strange thing that you only see on classical guitars presumably played at a level of competency that doesn't need markers.

But in relation to the tension, there's something about not having dots that makes a lot of sense.

What is it?

 

[Nuuska]

Is this an evil plot to make all of us dig out their manuals and read in hope to get it ?

ps - I have maybe three original manuals somewhere

ps 2 - being lazy hippie - I'll wait for answer . . .

ps 3 - today I was a "not lazy hippie" cleaning a fallen tree w electric chainsaw - what a massacre . . . err . . .mess

 

[Wilmywood]

Ok I have read every Guild manual online I can find and one in my possession and nothing.

What's the deal?

 

[davismanLV]

With the crazy swing from super minimal up to crazy ornate in my house, I give very little thought to what's on the actual fretboard. Side dots are super helpful. But I never really see the fretboard or pay attention.

 

[AcornHouse]

It’s all side dots for me. I don’t really see the fingerboard face when I play.
As for why Guild did it on these? Maybe just economics? Keeping the entry level 12er as low cost as possible to make up for the increased cost of a 12er while still making a price point.

 

[Guildedagain]

It has to do with compensation for string tension.

I imagine by the time you get to a F312 on up, position markers were a must because of the bling factor.

F112 and 212, no a dot marker between the two of them, rather odd for any steel string flattop from anyone.

 

[lonesome picker]

I think F-312s had naked fretboards too.

 

[AcornHouse]

I think F-312s had naked fretboards too.

They prefer to be known as “naturist fretboards”.

 

[davismanLV]

You have to be careful these days. You may SEE a plain, unadorned fretboard, but they might IDENTIFY as ornate. People are funny about that.....

 

[nickelwound]

Maybe because people downtune on the lighter built models then capo for desired tuning?

 

[Charlie Bernstein]

It’s all side dots for me. I don’t really see the fingerboard face when I play.
As for why Guild did it on these? Maybe just economics? Keeping the entry level 12er as low cost as possible to make up for the increased cost of a 12er while still making a price point.

Yup. I only see the side markers. In fact, I had side dots added to two of my instruments because they didn't have 'em and I don't see the fretboard when I play.

 

[Charlie Bernstein]

Maybe because people downtune on the lighter built models then capo for desired tuning?

And how would eliminating dots help? Capos don't feel dots.

I harbor doubts.

 

[Charlie Bernstein]

It has to do with compensation for string tension. . . .

But how could dots affect string tension?

 

[Rocky]

I imagine that inlays, even dots would reduce the stiffness of the fingerboard. Which would be important, if it was a major contributor to structural integrity.

FWIW, -05 and lower Larrivees did not have inlays until sometime in the 90's. And Gretch in '57 decided 'neo-classical' thumbprint inlays were a better choice, reinforced by some Jimmy Webster mumbo-jumbo voodoo marketing-ese.

 

[Guildedagain]

But how could dots affect string tension?

Dots don't cause tension, strings cause tension, a lot of it, exponential on a 12 string.

Guild manual;

Tuning the 12-String Guitars.

"Due to the tremendous amount of pressure exerted on the neck by the 12 strings, we suggest you use a light gauge string set, such as the Guild XL-1000 or the L-1250 on your 12 string guitar.

Many players find it difficult to press the strings down on a 12 string, due to the high tension caused by the extra strings.

A remedy that some players choose is to tune entire guitar to a lower relative pitch, such as E-flat or D; thereby reducing the string tension. You may then use a capo on the first or second fret, to bring it back up to where it plays at standard pitch.

The guitar will certainly be easier to play, and the reduced tension will put less stress on the neck over time, but bear in mind that it will also sacrifice a bit of the tone projection of the instrument.

All Guild 12-strings feature a double truss rod for superior strength and improved accuracy with the adjustments, however a 12 string at standard pitch should be monitored regularly for the possible need of truss rod adjustments. A guitar in need of an adjustment that is ignored may develop permanent problems. Please note: Warpage of the neck, caused by the neglect of necessary adjustments will not be covered under the Guild warranty."

And here's the beauty of the absence of dot markers on the fingerboard, you're not going to get confused by markers that are no longer applicable while capo'd at the 1st or 2nd fret, especially for the instrument's whole life. I like it, a lot actually.

The Guild Flat-Top Guitars brochures like the one's I'm selling show no fingerboard markers for the F-112. F-212. F-212XL, F-312.

I think F-312s had naked fretboards too.

Correct, I amended my post to reflect.

But all 6 string guitar no matter how lowly have fingerboard dot markers, even the "Economy" M-20 had fingerboard position markers.

I think the absence of markers has to do with accepted/suggested capo-ing to reduce tension, and mitigating the possible confusion or minor annoyance of 3rd, 5th, 7th, 9th, 12th, 15th position dot markers in the wrong place.

 

[Charlie Bernstein]

It has to do with compensation for string tension. . . .

But how could dots affect string tension?

Dots don't cause tension, strings cause tension, a lot of it, exponential on a 12 string.

Guild manual;

Tuning the 12-String Guitars.

"Due to the tremendous amount of pressure exerted on the neck by the 12 strings, we suggest you use a light gauge string set, such as the Guild XL-1000 or the L-1250 on your 12 string guitar.

Many players find it difficult to press the strings down on a 12 string, due to the high tension caused by the extra strings.

A remedy that some players choose is to tune entire guitar to a lower relative pitch, such as E-flat or D; thereby reducing the string tension. You may then use a capo on the first or second fret, to bring it back up to where it plays at standard pitch.

The guitar will certainly be easier to play, and the reduced tension will put less stress on the neck over time, but bear in mind that it will also sacrifice a bit of the tone projection of the instrument.

All Guild 12-strings feature a double truss rod for superior strength and improved accuracy with the adjustments, however a 12 string at standard pitch should be monitored regularly for the possible need of truss rod adjustments. A guitar in need of an adjustment that is ignored may develop permanent problems. Please note: Warpage of the neck, caused by the neglect of necessary adjustments will not be covered under the Guild warranty."

And here's the beauty of the absence of dot markers on the fingerboard, you're not going to get confused by markers that are no longer applicable while capo'd at the 1st or 2nd fret, especially for the instrument's whole life. I like it, a lot actually.

The Guild Flat-Top Guitars brochures like the one's I'm selling show no fingerboard markers for the F-112. F-212. F-212XL, F-312.



Correct, I amended my post to reflect.

But all 6 string guitar no matter how lowly have fingerboard dot markers, even the "Economy" M-20 had fingerboard position markers.

I think the absence of markers has to do with accepted/suggested capo-ing to reduce tension, and mitigating the possible confusion or minor annoyance of 3rd, 5th, 7th, 9th, 12th, 15th position dot markers in the wrong place.

Hm. Dunno. SI use capos, but I still want dots. Regardless of where the capo is, the dots tell me where I am.

That's why I had side dots added to my instruments that didn't have them.

=O.

 

[Guildedagain]

I like to make my own glow in the dark side markers.

 

[SFIV1967]

Just as a side info: Hans once said: "Most of the lower line Guild twelve strings didn't have position markers up till about the end of 1977. Position dots were introduced on the 12 strings during 1978."

Ralf

 

[Christopher Cozad]

I think the absence of markers has to do with accepted/suggested capo-ing to reduce tension, and mitigating the possible confusion or minor annoyance of 3rd, 5th, 7th, 9th, 12th, 15th position dot markers in the wrong place.

Clever observation. I don't know if that was a benevolent design decision on Guild's part, or simply an effort to just save money. But it sure makes sense, especially for beginners, as massive position markers only serve to confuse fingering when the player tunes down 1/2 to 1 step and adds a capo.

 

[Heath]

Personally, I think it was just a design choice. If it served a specific purpose I would think it would be across all the 12’s. I’m weird though