Differences between a Franz and a Gibby P90 ?

[Rudehog]

I have not had the pleasure of playing a guild with a Franz but I have recently added a pair of P90's to a cpl of other hollow body guitars I have and I love them, now Im jonesing for a guild with the Franz pups or maybe even finding a pair to put in my X170.....

Could any of you describe the physical and tonal differences between a Franz and a p90?


-Eric

 

[Walter Broes]

This is an early 60's Franz pickup :

Except for the slightly different mounting system, it's physically extremely similar to a P90 pickup. I've only seen this "enclosed in plastic" coil on 60's examples, earlier ones have a bobbin that looks more like a Gibson pickup, with a bottom and top plate with the side of the coil visible. The base plate/magnet assembly is the same in all the ones I've seen.


My experience is with late 50's and early 60's ones, and the resistance of the coil is decidedly lower than a typical Gibson P90 of the era. My Franz pickups read between 5 and 6 K on a meter, Gibson P90's of that same era typically read between 7 and 8K, a lot of current ones between 8 and 9K, and upwards of that.

This could mean Franz pickups have an "underwound" coil with the same wire, or that Franz used thicker wire than Gibson. So far, nobody on LTG seems to know what the wire gauge was on Franz pickups.
The construction of them is typically a little more crude than a Gibson pickup, and this often results in a pickup that's pretty microphonic. I've wax potted all of mine, had to in order for them to be useable at band volumes through an amp that's breaking up a little.
I heard a friend of mine describe them as "like a home made looking P90", and that's not too far off.

In any case, it results in a pickup that compared to the average Gibson P90, has more treble and clarity, and less of that typical midrange honk. I think of them as a twangy, brighter P90, and I'm definitely a big fan.

 

[Walter Broes]

Oh, and on putting a pair of these in an X170 - I don't think that would be easy at all, but maybe slightly easier than locating a pair for sale! :lol:

 

[matsickma]

Walter,

All of the Franz pups I have seen were the type with the open bobbons. In all around 30 pickups. I picked up a pair of pups a few years back that looked like Franz but they came without covers and had the black plastic surround like the the pair you showed. The seller wasn't sure if they were Franz either so I got the pair for less than $100. I never knew if they were Franz or not as I didn't mount them yet. I have been planning to install of Franz's on a 'hog DE400 and these may be the pups I use.

M

 

[Walter Broes]

I have two pairs of these, and two pairs of "open bobbin" ones. They sound the same to my ears.

 

[Rudehog]

Thank you Walter for the detailed info

Could you tell me if the pole spacing is the same as a p90?
How far from the strings do you run them? Do you ever shim them up closer to the strings for a little more bite?

I have an Ibanez Artcore A75 that I pulled the humbuckers out and made adapters out of wood to accept dog ear p90's .
I made them to screw into place of the humbucker rings and then the dog ear screwed down to the adapters with short screws so I didnt drill into the body at all. Now it could be reversed without a problem.
I was thinking of doing the same with a pair of Fanz pups for my X-170.

Here is a pic of the Ibby......... (sorry for the non Guild pic )



IMG_1431

 

[Walter Broes]

Well, the mounting system is different on a Franz pickup, it won't be as easy, and it's close to impossible to find a pair for sale. It's kind of hard to explain exactly how they mount, I've tried to explain it on here before. The tabs you see on the baseplate sit on the bracing of the guitar for the neck pickup, on top of the body for the lead pickup.

Most X170's I've seen don't have enough bridge height to accommodate the tall lead pickup cover on a Franz pickup.

And yes, they sound good close to the strings. Pole spacing on later ones is same as a P90, early issue Franz pickups had different pole spacing for lead and rhythm pickups.

But really, unless you got extremely lucky and found a stray set, the point is kind of moot.

 

[guildman63]

You may want to check with the S. Duncan Custom Shop. They recently created a relica of the 50's Franz pup for use in the GSR T-500, and the pickups may be available for purchase.

 

[matsickma]

Walter,

Are you able to wax pot the "black plastic" model Franz pup? I have potted a number of early Franz pups and keep a "kettle" of bees wax and parafin blended and ready to use when neede. I just need the occasion to heat it up.

M

 

[matsickma]

Their are a few ways to give your X170 a brighter single coil pickup sound with your stock humbuckers. A coil tap is the obvious method as employed on the special run of "Mars Music" X170T's. Another way that I find sounds fuller and bright ala a Franz pup is to re-wire the humbucker from the normal bobbin arrangement (i.e., coil + counter wound coil connected in SERIES)to a parallel arrangement (i.e., coil + counter wound coil connected in PARALLEL). I wired up a solidbody Guild M75 this way using HB-1's and was very pleased with the results. This wiring scheme would be very easy to do on a pair of "fender HB-1's as they have the bobbin taps exposed.

M

 

[Rudehog]

Thanks again Walter! I am clear on that now, I will just have to save some $ and find an x175 !

Guildman63 I took your advice and emailed SD about those pups.

matsickma I have TV Jones TV Tron classics in it now and it does sound great but Im always tinkering and swapping parts, rewiring......keeps me sane or at least close to it! But recently I picked up a cpl of cheap guitars aff craigslist and put p90's in them and I love the tone! I shouldnt even mess with the X170 but my mind is always wondering :roll:

-Eric

 

[dbirchett]

Thank you Walter for the detailed info

Could you tell me if the pole spacing is the same as a p90?
How far from the strings do you run them? Do you ever shim them up closer to the strings for a little more bite?

I have an Ibanez Artcore A75 that I pulled the humbuckers out and made adapters out of wood to accept dog ear p90's .
I made them to screw into place of the humbucker rings and then the dog ear screwed down to the adapters with short screws so I didnt drill into the body at all. Now it could be reversed without a problem.
I was thinking of doing the same with a pair of Fanz pups for my X-170.

Here is a pic of the Ibby......... (sorry for the non Guild pic )



IMG_1431

Very nice but it needs a Bigsby!

 

[Walter Broes]

Walter,

Are you able to wax pot the "black plastic" model Franz pup? I have potted a number of early Franz pups and keep a "kettle" of bees wax and parafin blended and ready to use when neede. I just need the occasion to heat it up.

M

You mean the pickup in the pic above? Yep - I have a little pot of the same mixture I keep handy too, and I've succesfully potted all of the Franz pickups I have in it. They're still not something you want to put through a "heavy metal" distortion box, they'll squeal, but who needs distortion boxes anyway?

 

[matsickma]

Yep. No distortion boxes here just a WAWA! If I want lots of distortion I use a Class A amp.

M