deArmond with P-90's: M-73 or M-75 ?

[coastie99]

My nephew recently fitted a set of P-90's to his SF4 and I'm in love with the sound of these things.

I'd love to buy a Bluesbird, or Blues 90 and perform this mod, but I'm not willing to spend that much money. And, yes; I know that the Blues 90 is already fitted with P-90's.

So, the mind turns to a deArmond.

I don't want a Starfire Special, nor do I really want an S-73.

If you were going to perform this mod. would you be more inclined to do it to a chambered M-73, or solid-body M-75 ?

BTW: The p/u's in question are Bare Knuckle Mississippi Queens.

 

[ce blues]

Gary,
I've installed many pickups and on a solidbody is the absolute easiest job. go for it.

ce

 

[coastie99]

Gary,
I've installed many pickups and on a solidbody is the absolute easiest job. go for it.

ce

Thanks CE.......... I didn't imagine it would be difficult. I just wondered if a chambered body might have an aural advantage over a solid body as far as P-90's are concerned.......... P-90's are a whole new ball game to me.

Another question I thought of......... P-90's with solid mahogany body, or mahogany / maple cap ?

 

[matsickma]

Hey coastie,

It would be easy to install "dog ear" P90's on a DeA M75T or M77T. You could pull the surface mount DeA 2ks and install the surface mount P90's.

I hear a lot of people talk about the differences in DeA M75's and M77's. I owned multiples of each in the DeArmond blowout era. In my experiance the DeA M75 and the M77 are very similar in weight and run around 9+ pounds. The M75 was based on Aristocrat/early Bluesbird body style and had a Harp stop. It has a lowgrade maple cap. It is also about 1/8 inch thicker than a M77 and came in a variety of colors that included Sunburst, Black, Blue, Purple. The M77 came in Blue and Red. It has a combination of chrome and gold hardware and has a standard Les Paul or modern Bluesbird bar-type stop. Since both guitars weigh the same and the M75 is thicker I assumed the M77 is a slab and the M75 has a little more holes and channels. The M75T and M77T have the Digsby with the M77T having a poor functionally roller bridge. There are more color options on the "T" models.

I would recommend you pick up a M75T or M77T. The DeA 2k pups are P90'ish in tone but tend to be a bit brighter. You may find that adjustment of polepiece height or pickup height (more difficult to do because you need DeA spacers) the tone is what you are looking for. If not satisfied you can then add surface mount dog-ear P90's.

Installing P90's on a HB PUP guitar is easy if it is a P90 sized to fit a HB. However the HB cutouts tend to be a little messey when installing P90 that are routed into the body.

In terms of guitar body, the DeA M72 (there is a S73 but no M73 model) is a very nice guitar and has a fair amount of routing under the maple cap. (I wish I never sold mine.) In many ways it resembles the Guild M70 in weight and construction. Stay away from the DeA M70 as this is a full solid body slab guitar that is heavy. Nothing wrong with the guitar but it is less ornate and Heavy.

I never played a full solid body with P90's. I have a SF4 with 3-P90's and a Nightengale/Bluesbird "blem" with P90's. The SF4 is brighter and the Night/Bluesbird is full and bassier. There is enough difference in tone to justify having each.

One of the famous guitar players who played a solid body with P90 was Leslie West. The Mountain era has a raw sound to the guitar. I beleive his guitar only had a bridge P90. I usually perfer the neck or neck + bridge blend.

M

 

[jp]

Hey matsickma,
Is it worth mentioning the neck angle issue when choosing between the M-75 and -77? Wasn't it improved in the -77? I haven't owned either model, but I remember the discussions.

 

[matsickma]

Hi JP,

I never noticed any differences.

M

 

[ce blues]

Gary,
If I'm not mistaken, the Bare Knuckle Mississippi Queens ARE P90s in a humbucking-type of mount. if that is indeed the case, installing them on a solidbody already equipped with 'buckers would be very easy. as an aside, I really like the vintage-style humbuckers that those folks make.....I put a set of them on a pal's les paul and they sounded killer! I've got a single P90 on an SG Jr. that I use for slide and the treble response of that pickup is just incredible: you could cut steel with that tone.

as to the question of chambered vs. solid bodies....about the only difference I've ever noticed was a question of weight. it isn't as if a chambered guitar's top is actually a "living/breathing" sound board. of course, that's just my $0.02 worth....there are other's who swear by the enhanced tone of a chambered body (I've just never heard it, I guess).

ce

 

[coastie99]

Matsickma; thanks for the very handy information mate.

There is a teensy fly though, in this particular ointment........ I hadn't realised that deA HB's are surface-mounted !

Instead of mounting Mississippi Queens (an interesting thought) which are P-90, HB-sized drop-ins, I'll have to use dog-ears. No great big problem, but I sure am glad I found out about the surface-mounting before I went ahead and bought stuff !

 

[coastie99]

CE; is that a Bare Knuckle P-90 you have on the Jr ?

 

[coastie99]

DAMMIT !!

I've just discovered that BK don't offer dog-ear P-90's !!

Looks like there's going to have to be a Plan C !

 

[coastie99]

But; having now looked around some sites, some deA's appear to have surface-mounted HB's, and others appear to to be mounted a la Bluesbird.

Correct ?

 

[matsickma]

Coastie,

The M75T and M77T have DeA 2k surface mount single coils. The M75 and M77 and many others have the Gold Tone Humbuckers tha have mounts similar to a Guild or Gibson. No DeA guitar with humbuckers are "surface mount" They have a body route and have the mounting rings similar to a standard humbucker.

M

 

[coastie99]

Jolly good !

So, what's this please ?

http://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/Listing ... =159577494

Would the p/u's out of this be useful to anybody ?

 

[matsickma]

Interesting. That looks like a DeA M70. However there are three features that are unusual. First the M70's I have seen have a "diagonal" stop like used on a Guild S300. The second is that the pickuard is multi layer. The M70's I have seen have single black pickguards. Finally it looks like it has a combination of Gold and Chrome hardware. The headstock "Chesterfield" indicates it was made in Korea so I suspect this was one of the later M70's made before the model was discontinued.

M

 

[ce blues]

gents,

this discussion and the most recent issue of VG have gotten me interested in the hollow body Guild (sans "F" holes...is it the M75?) that resembles the Les Paul. I've never played a 'bird before but I am beginning to think that these small hollow body guitars might be fun little screamers..... do they resemble the tone I can coax from my 335's while pushing a pair of output tubes into saturation? (that's where I live when I'm doing my thing with an electric band...and though my Super Goldtone has bitten the dust--temporarily--I'm getting the same sort of liquid tone from my back-up handwired, 2X6L6 Dumble-clone).

ce blue

oops, from re-reading the above, I realize the M75 is solidbody. Is it the aristocrat that I am thinking about....and what would such an animal cost me.
Gary,
The P90 was not Bare Knuckle....just an overwound Gibson that chips paint and cuts steel in the treble frequencies.

 

[The Guilds of Grot]

ce blues,

Guild started out with the "hollow" (routed?) M-75. Then they added the solid version.

You can tell the difference by the tail piece.

The "hollow" has a harp like this;

And the solid the diagonal stop like this;

 

[matsickma]

Hi CE,

The M75 came in 4 styles: 1) The M75 Atistocrat (~1954-1962). Fully Hollowbody constructed like a 1950's archtop and came with Franz SC Pups. Very light and constructed with minimal bracing. Outstanding guitar. Prone to Feedback. 2) The M75 Bluesbird (~1968-1970). Full Hollowbody. Constructed like a late 1960's archtop with a bit more bracing than the Aristocrat. A little heavier. Came with Guild mini humbuckers. The one I owned sounded trebly to me. I assumed it was the Guild mini pups. At the time I was looking for a guitar with more bottom end. However, I now regret selling it. 3) M75 Bluesbird (~1970-1973). This is the sunburst model posted by GoG. This is a "Semi solid " model which basically means the body from the bridge down is solid and from the bridge up is hollow. It is constructed like a semihollow but without the block in the middle. These came with the large Guild humbuckers. Great guitars. I have one similar to GoG's. The guitar has a full low end response. 4) M75 (~1972-1977). This model is a Solid Body. The Mahogony is not as heavy as a Les Paul of that era.

My experiance with a 335 is limited. However I play a Guild Starfire V quite a bit. I find the 3) M75 to have more bottom end than the Starfire. Both have similar feedback rejection. In both cases the guitars have the large Guild humbuckers. The 3) M75 is easy to handle and fun to play. My ony complaint is the the "roller" bridge used on Guilds of this era sometimes buzz. They are flexible at adjusting string spacing and intonation but occasionally act up. The 3)M75 has a hollow body Harp type Stop whick is pretty cool and traces its Aristocrat heritage. However since it is solid in this area a hard stop could be used. I doubt if most would want to alter this guitar. I have been thinking of installing a Bigsby on mine but haven't had the guts.


Note: All date are approximate.
M

 

[ce blues]

M,
I know what you mean about the roller bridges "acting up"....I've got one on my 1970 S100 Polara....and the big humbuckers from Guild are excellent in my view. I think I'd really enjoy playing one of the full hollow M75s but I would probably need to change pickups because I demand a dominant midrange tone that sustains well....I don't like "trebly" axes (and thus hardly ever play any of my Fender guitars). Thankfully I don't pick as violently as I did 20 years ago so my top and bottom strings would probably stay seated on a roller bridge these days.
ce
as an aside, I love that sunburst finish that they put on so many of their guitars....it is the same one that is on my very first nice guitar (a '64 T 100D, bought by my mom that year--G of G, didn't I read a similar story in the bio on your lovely site?).

 

[The Guilds of Grot]

(a '64 T 100D, bought by my mom that year--G of G, didn't I read a similar story in the bio on your lovely site?).

Yup, my parents bought me my first Guild, a 1966 T-100D.

Oh, here it is now!

 

[ce blues]

your's is in much better shape than mine! Not counting the extreme case of belt buckle rash on the back, many years of gigging that guitar has left the finish in terrible shape (not to mention that I need to refret the poor beastie one day soon). I love that Guild sunburst finish, though!

ce

you have some beautiful instruments, G of G