Bridges glued on with Epoxy glue?

Uke

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A friend has a pending sale (Reverb) on her 1951 Gibson J-185. It will need the bridge replaced with a repro bridge. It seems the pending buyer's luthier has concerns that the current bridge may glued on with some sort of Epoxy glue. Is this a serious problem in terms of getting an old bridge off?
 

chazmo

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Uke,

Shouldn't be, but it depends on whether the bridge was previously repaired (properly) or not.

If it's the original bridge, and not repaired/replaced since '51, then I'm pretty sure Gibson would not have used epoxy. I'm no expert on Gibsons though.

As long as it's the right kind of glue, the bridge should iron off pretty easily, Uke.

As for the sale of this lovely guitar, I think your friend should take a pretty hard line with the buyer on this. If it's being sold and disclosed with a problem bridge, then it's no concern of your friend what the buyer needs to do to replace it. That's my opinion, anyway.
 
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Uke

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Uke,

Shouldn't be, but it depends on whether the bridge was previously repaired (properly) or not.

If it's the original bridge, and not repaired/replaced since '51, then I'm pretty sure Gibson would not have used epoxy. I'm no expert on Gibsons though.

As long as it's the right kind of glue, the bridge should iron off pretty easily, Uke.

As for the sale of this lovely guitar, I think your friend should take a pretty hard line with the buyer on this. If it's being sold and disclosed with a problem bridge, then it's no concern of your friend what the buyer needs to do to replace it. That's my opinion, anyway.
Thanks Chazmo
My friend has "sold" this guitar on Reverb. She's not sure where the "sale" might be headed because of Reverb's return policy and a buyer who may be having reservations after having his luthier look at it. My friend was very transparent and up-front about the guitar; it seems to me that the buyer knew very well what he was buying. The luthier, by the way, is the one I inquired about here on LTG three or four weeks ago -- T.J. Thompson. Oh well, stayed tuned. Edit: the current bridge is not the origianal bridge.
 

chazmo

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Well, good luck to your friend, Uke.

I'm a little confused, though. Is the guitar in the buyer's hands or still in your friend's hands? If it's in her hands, she should cancel the sale. If the buyer bought it with the issue having been disclosed, then it's the buyer's problem, Uke.
 

Uke

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Well, good luck to your friend, Uke.

I'm a little confused, though. Is the guitar in the buyer's hands or still in your friend's hands? If it's in her hands, she should cancel the sale. If the buyer bought it with the issue having been disclosed, then it's the buyer's problem, Uke.
It is in the buyer's hands. Actually, it's in the buyer's luthier's hands -- it was shipped directly to the buyer's luthier, at the buyer's request. My friend was very careful to disclose that the bridge was not original. I completely agree with you that this issue is the buyer's problem at this point. But I have no idea how Reverb policies apply or function here. I personally would never have the stomach to sell a guitar like this on Reverb (I even said that to my friend before she listed it with Reverb).
 

chazmo

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Well, you've done all you can, Uke. Tell your friend we stand with her. IMO, it's better to sell a guitar "with problems" than to go ahead and fix them before selling. Let someone else worry about it. Again, just my opinion.
 
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wileypickett

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My former luthier had experience with Epoxied bridges and said they were very difficult to remove without damage to the guitar, and without virtually destroying the bridge. Rather than fuss with trying to remove the bridge, his solution was to sand through the old bridge completely and then sand off the Epoxy and glue a replacement bridge in its footprint.

Since the bridge is not original, it sounds like the loss of it is no big deal, and it could be a chance for the new buyer to get a stock replacement.

No idea what such a job might run.
 

Uke

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My former luthier had experience with Epoxied bridges and said they were very difficult to remove without damage to the guitar, and without virtually destroying the bridge. Rather than fuss with trying to remove the bridge, his solution was to sand through the old bridge completely and then sand off the Epoxy and glue a replacement bridge in the footprint.

Since the bridge is not original, it sounds like the loss of it is no big deal, and it could be a chance for the new buyer to get a stock replacement.

No idea what such a job might run.
I'm no luthier, but I mentioned the same "treatment plan" to my wife a bit ago -- route off as much of the old bridge as possible (it's not original or valuable), then just sand off the rest down to the top wood.
 

chazmo

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I'm no luthier, but I mentioned the same "treatment plan" to my wife a bit ago -- route off as much of the old bridge as possible (it's not original or valuable), then just sand off the rest down to the top wood.
That'd definitely be the way to go, Uke. But again, it's not your friend's problem. OK, 'nuff said. :)
 
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wileypickett

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I'm no luthier, but I mentioned the same "treatment plan" to my wife a bit ago -- route off as much of the old bridge as possible (it's not original or valuable), then just sand off the rest down to the top wood.

Sanding down through the top of the bridge is easier and cleaner than trying to pry it off.
 

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I believe that hide glue was used traditionally for musical instruments. It's quite strong, and it allows instrument disassembly for repair by using heat to soften the glue.

If/when this was abandoned, I don't know.

I suspect that epoxy would be a one way street at worst or a difficult two way street at best for any later repairs to a bridge.

But people do do strange things. I took a small Japanese-luther-made Romantic style (body only, no friction pegs) classical guitar into a luthier for a friend. Somewhere along the line before the guitar came into the hands of my friend, steel strings had been installed, and the bridge had pulled loose and had been glued back down with crazy glue. The luthier I took the guitar to was explosive in his anger, and it took some talking to convince him that I had not done the crazy glue work.

So I don't know about epoxy. But I do know that crazy glue almost caused one luthier to explode.
 
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Canard

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A tangential caveat here:

I bought an archtop once.

I asked the seller if the bridge was pinned.

I do not like pinned bridges because the position is fixed to the gauge of strings used at time of pinning. Also as the guitar ages and does its own micro adjustments of dis-intonation, you cannot easily compensate by moving the bridge.

The seller replied disingenuously (but sort of truthfully) that, no, the bridge was not pinned.

I bought the guitar. And then when I went to set it up, I discovered that the bridge was fixed rigidly in place. I went after the seller, asking why I had been lied to. The seller's defence was that the bridge was not pinned; it was taped with double-sided tape. Foolishly, I did not specifically ask if the bridge was taped.

I could not budge the bridge, even with major force. I took the guitar to my luthier. She didn't think that freeing up the bridge would be a problem, but when I came back to collect the guitar, she was highly annoyed. She said it had proven to be a very difficult job to free the bridge without damaging it or the top of the guitar.

The take-away: Don't ask overly specific questions, such as is the bridge is pinned. Go for the generic question: is the bridge free or is it fixed in place?
 
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Rocky

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I bought the guitar. And then when I went to set it up, I discovered that the bridge was fixed rigidly in place. I went after the seller, asking why I had been lied to. The seller's defence was that the bridge was not pinned; it was taped with double-sided tape. Foolishly, I did not specifically ask if the bridge was taped.

I could not budge the bridge, even with major force. I took the guitar to my luthier. She didn't think that freeing up the bridge would be a problem, but when I came back to collect the guitar, she was highly annoyed. She said it had proven to be a very difficult job to free the bridge without damaging it or the top of the guitar.
There are right ways (and apparently wrong ways) to tape a floating bridge. The right way is to use photo squares. I'm guessing the wrong way is carpet tape.
 

BradHK

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A tangential caveat here:

I bought an archtop once.

I asked the seller if the bridge was pinned.

I do not like pinned bridges because the position is fixed to the gauge of strings used at time of pinning. Also as the guitar ages and does its own micro adjustments of dis-intonation, you cannot easily compensate by moving the bridge.

The seller replied disingenuously (but sort of truthfully) that, no, the bridge was not pinned.

I bought the guitar. And then when I went to set it up, I discovered that the bridge was fixed rigidly in place. I went after the seller, asking why I had been lied to. The seller's defence was that the bridge was not pinned; it was taped with double-sided tape. Foolishly, I did not specifically ask if the bridge was taped.

I could not budge the bridge, even with major force. I took the guitar to my luthier. She didn't think that freeing up the bridge would be a problem, but when I came back to collect the guitar, she was highly annoyed. She said it had proven to be a very difficult job to free the bridge without damaging it or the top of the guitar.

The take-away: Don't ask overly specific questions, such as is the bridge is pinned. Go for the generic question: is the bridge free or is it fixed in place?
I have purchased two 1970 hollow M75 Bluesbirds where the floating metal bridge feet were glued to the top of the guitar! I wish they had only been taped down!
 
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Christopher Cozad

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A friend has a pending sale (Reverb) on her 1951 Gibson J-185. It will need the bridge replaced with a repro bridge. It seems the pending buyer's luthier has concerns that the current bridge may glued on with some sort of Epoxy glue. Is this a serious problem in terms of getting an old bridge off?
Short answer: No.

Long answer: see below...

The benefits of animal protein glues (hide, fish, etc) are well known: they are anti-creeping and will readily release their bond when heat is applied. These benefits have proven to be helpful, especially over the last century in the development of the steel string acoustic guitar. The instruments disassemble easily, making prototyping, let alone repairs, so much easier. For example, when removing a hardwood bridge off a softwood Spruce or Cedar soundboard, if hide glue was used, there is little chance of taking sections of the soundboard with it.

The downside to animal protein glues is found in their extremely short open, or working, time. This is the period of time (counted in seconds), that the crafstman has to position the part(s) before the adhesive bond is formed. Parts assembly must be coordinated with the open time of the glue in use, which can be rather restrictive. This establishes the proper use of animal protein glues in lutherie as more of an art form than a simple skill to master (think: French Polish shellac vs wipe-on varnish). There is also the issue of the quality of the glue (like Shellac: short shelf life) along with the economics and practicality of keeping sufficient quantities on hand, ready to go. The heat at which these glues will soften and release is relatively low, as many have come to learn the hard way, thanks largely to the automotive industry. Animal protein glues are water soluable, meaning things built with them fall apart in moist environments.

By contrast, for the luthier (or woodworker or craftsman) more modern (wood) glues are very pragmatic. They have relatively long shelf lives, and can sit in a shop in a bottle, an arm’s reach away for immediate application. Their adhesive strength is significant, and the bond they form can be relied on. They can (with some care) even be coaxed to release their bond.

Epoxies are the exception. While I have actually taken an instrument apart that I put together using epoxy (just to prove it could be done), it is not pretty. If/when you are planning on disassembly, epoxy is typically not your first choice. But epoxy is a choice and, in some cases, it is arguably superior to other adhesives, including the animal protein glues, for specific lutherie tasks. Not all epoxies are created equal, though you can count on them all to form incredibly strong, waterproof bonds. Some epoxy formulations have excellent tonal characteristics where they, like hide glue, do not dampen the sound in any way but add a vitreous, glass-like component to it.

As has already been suggested, the best method for removing a bridge that has been attached with epoxy, or a bridge that has been attached with any other glue where tear-out is anticipated upon any attempt at removal, is to rout it off. By first securing the body, then attaching a jig, or fixture, to the soundboard that can cradle a plunge router, it is a trivial matter.

The fun part comes next, which is deciding what adhesive would/could/should be used to put the new bridge back on. Just think of the arguments that discussion can spawn amongst the right crowd(s)!
 

Uke

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Short answer: No.

Long answer: see below...

The benefits of animal protein glues (hide, fish, etc) are well known: they are anti-creeping and will readily release their bond when heat is applied. These benefits have proven to be helpful, especially over the last century in the development of the steel string acoustic guitar. The instruments disassemble easily, making prototyping, let alone repairs, so much easier. For example, when removing a hardwood bridge off a softwood Spruce or Cedar soundboard, if hide glue was used, there is little chance of taking sections of the soundboard with it.

The downside to animal protein glues is found in their extremely short open, or working, time. This is the period of time (counted in seconds), that the crafstman has to position the part(s) before the adhesive bond is formed. Parts assembly must be coordinated with the open time of the glue in use, which can be rather restrictive. This establishes the proper use of animal protein glues in lutherie as more of an art form than a simple skill to master (think: French Polish shellac vs wipe-on varnish). There is also the issue of the quality of the glue (like Shellac: short shelf life) along with the economics and practicality of keeping sufficient quantities on hand, ready to go. The heat at which these glues will soften and release is relatively low, as many have come to learn the hard way, thanks largely to the automotive industry. Animal protein glues are water soluable, meaning things built with them fall apart in moist environments.

By contrast, for the luthier (or woodworker or craftsman) more modern (wood) glues are very pragmatic. They have relatively long shelf lives, and can sit in a shop in a bottle, an arm’s reach away for immediate application. Their adhesive strength is significant, and the bond they form can be relied on. They can (with some care) even be coaxed to release their bond.

Epoxies are the exception. While I have actually taken an instrument apart that I put together using epoxy (just to prove it could be done), it is not pretty. If/when you are planning on disassembly, epoxy is typically not your first choice. But epoxy is a choice and, in some cases, it is arguably superior to other adhesives, including the animal protein glues, for specific lutherie tasks. Not all epoxies are created equal, though you can count on them all to form incredibly strong, waterproof bonds. Some epoxy formulations have excellent tonal characteristics where they, like hide glue, do not dampen the sound in any way but add a vitreous, glass-like component to it.

As has already been suggested, the best method for removing a bridge that has been attached with epoxy, or a bridge that has been attached with any other glue where tear-out is anticipated upon any attempt at removal, is to rout it off. By first securing the body, then attaching a jig, or fixture, to the soundboard that can cradle a plunge router, it is a trivial matter.

The fun part comes next, which is deciding what adhesive would/could/should be used to put the new bridge back on. Just think of the arguments that discussion can spawn amongst the right crowd(s)!
I think you've covered it well! (y)
 

hearth_man

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A tangential caveat here:

I bought an archtop once.

I asked the seller if the bridge was pinned.

I do not like pinned bridges because the position is fixed to the gauge of strings used at time of pinning. Also as the guitar ages and does its own micro adjustments of dis-intonation, you cannot easily compensate by moving the bridge.

The seller replied disingenuously (but sort of truthfully) that, no, the bridge was not pinned.

I bought the guitar. And then when I went to set it up, I discovered that the bridge was fixed rigidly in place. I went after the seller, asking why I had been lied to. The seller's defence was that the bridge was not pinned; it was taped with double-sided tape. Foolishly, I did not specifically ask if the bridge was taped.

I could not budge the bridge, even with major force. I took the guitar to my luthier. She didn't think that freeing up the bridge would be a problem, but when I came back to collect the guitar, she was highly annoyed. She said it had proven to be a very difficult job to free the bridge without damaging it or the top of the guitar.

The take-away: Don't ask overly specific questions, such as is the bridge is pinned. Go for the generic question: is the bridge free or is it fixed in place?
I agree 100% with your reasoning for letting a floating bridge float! I had an X-50 with the same double sided tape issue. It wasn't easy but I was able to remove it. It seems like a short sited solution to attach a floating bridge to me.
 
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