Better Late Than Never, Right?: My '64 SF-1 and My Family

[bassmanpatsfan18]

Hey Guys,

So I got my new '64 Starfire over two weeks ago, but it's been midterm season here at Northwestern until a few days ago and between that and job interviews and never getting home in time to take pictures outside, I've put off doing this for a while. For that, I apologize.

Anyway, I now present my new bass family:

That's the '64 fretted SF-I on the left (with a Dark Star that I added last week) and my trusty old '69 fretless (w/ Bartolini J's) on the right.

Here are some more pictures before I share my thoughts:

You'll notice that the Serial number sticker is peeling up on the '64. Also, I had the headstock refinished on my '69 this summer. Here's my old thread about my '69: http://letstalkguild.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=20151. As you can tell from the pictures there, the headstock was nothing but a blank piece of ebony when I bought it. This summer, I had one of the guys at Lakland who specializes in inlays inlay a replacement Guild logo, refinish the headstock and replace the old Schaller tuners with Hipshot Ultralites. Sure, it doesn't look exactly like an original headstock, but it looks pretty darn close and I'm very happy with it.

Now, onto the '64. When I first got it, it came with a DiMarzio Model One pickup, which you all saw in the ebay ad. I was lucky enough to find a Dark Star at Rock And Roll Vintage, a great vintage gear store here in Chicago. They gave me an incredibly reasonable price for the DS and to swap it out, put in new pots, and clean and set up the whole thing. This baby plays like butter now and sounds like a dream. I'd actually never played a DS-equipped bass before, only a Starfire with an original Hagstrom, but man are these pickups the best. I can see why they're so impossible to find nowadays. Having the pickup in the bridge position instead of at the neck seems to give me a wide variety of tonal options. If I play right over the pickup, the tone is tight and heavy with just the right amount of "growl." If I play closer to the neck, it gets looser and a little "woofier," but not in a Gibson mudbucker kind of way. You'll notice that the switch is still in this bass (It was used with the DiMarzio to switch between series and parallel I believe). I had the repair guy leave it in there even though it's not wired to anything. The bass came strung with what I believe are Pyramid flatwounds. They sound great, except that the E is kind of dead (can't get much in the way of harmonics out of it). I'll replace those soon. Also, one of the high frets on the G string (high C) buzzes a lot and so I believe it needs to be leveled. Other than that, this thing plays and sound better than I could have imagined. One thing that I noticed is that the '64 has 16.5mm string spacing and the '69 has about 18 mm spacing. There's definitely a noticeable difference between the two. I'm not sure which I like better right now, but I'm leaning toward 18mm, so I might have to get some new saddles cut for the '64 at some point.

Anyway, enjoy the pics. Let me know what you guys think.

Best,
Alex

 

[krysh]

congrats alex, nice couple.

 

[fronobulax]

Wow. Thanks.

Is the '64 really that caramel color in person? It is a real pretty color in the photographs.

The headstock redo is impressive. I don't think I would have noticed if you had not pointed it out.

In theory Fred Hammon is still making Dark Star pickups although in practice no one is talking about how they placed an order, had it accepted and received new ones recently. So you were lucky to find one.

"If I play right over the pickup, the tone is tight and heavy with just the right amount of "growl." If I play closer to the neck, it gets looser and a little "woofier," but not in a Gibson mudbucker kind of way."

I like that description. Compared to my SF I, I'd say the growl comes from the PU but tight, heavy and woof come from the location.

I have to believe the switch on the '64 was not original. I've never seen a factory installed switch on a bass that was prior to mid-1967 and the location is different compared to the post 1967 factory installs. You may have a rare bass but it think it is more likely that the switch was added when the PU was swapped. You may already have come to that conclusion.

Where are you measuring the string spacing? (Wait, never mind, they have different bridges). If you like the wider spacing maybe you should replace the bridge and then sell the original to Baz Cooper who desperately wants an original and might forgive some of my comments if I help him find one.

What are the saddles made out of on the '64? If I recall discussions with Hans they shipped with black plastic saddles until some time in 1966.

Thanks for reporting back.

 

[bassmanpatsfan18]

Wow. Thanks.

Is the '64 really that caramel color in person? It is a real pretty color in the photographs.

The headstock redo is impressive. I don't think I would have noticed if you had not pointed it out.

In theory Fred Hammon is still making Dark Star pickups although in practice no one is talking about how they placed an order, had it accepted and received new ones recently. So you were lucky to find one.

"If I play right over the pickup, the tone is tight and heavy with just the right amount of "growl." If I play closer to the neck, it gets looser and a little "woofier," but not in a Gibson mudbucker kind of way."

I like that description. Compared to my SF I, I'd say the growl comes from the PU but tight, heavy and woof come from the location.

I have to believe the switch on the '64 was not original. I've never seen a factory installed switch on a bass that was prior to mid-1967 and the location is different compared to the post 1967 factory installs. You may have a rare bass but it think it is more likely that the switch was added when the PU was swapped. You may already have come to that conclusion.

Where are you measuring the string spacing? (Wait, never mind, they have different bridges). If you like the wider spacing maybe you should replace the bridge and then sell the original to Baz Cooper who desperately wants an original and might forgive some of my comments if I help him find one.

What are the saddles made out of on the '64? If I recall discussions with Hans they shipped with black plastic saddles until some time in 1966.

Thanks for reporting back.

Thanks for the comments everyone!

Frono:

Yes, that is a pretty good representation of the true color. Caramel is a great way to describe it. The guy I bought it from took some really good pictures of the bass for his auction, but they actually made the color look a little lighter than it truly is.

I don't think that the finish or the switch is original. I'm guessing that the switch was added to the bass in the 80's when the DiMarzio pickup was added.

I really do like the original bridge, so I'd rather not replace it. Sorry, Baz. Granted I helped him find a Dark Star for his bass, so I don't feel that bad.

The saddles are plastic and original I believe. If I wanted to increase the string spacing to 18mm, I would have to buy new saddles and get them cut wider, correct? There is room on the neck to do that and so I might try it at some point down the line. I know that the guildbassparts guys make rosewood saddles--anyone know where I could find plastic ones?

I'm extremely impressed with the headstock redo on the '69. It's almost too nice considering the age of the bass and the usual deterioration of most Starfires' headstocks.

Now that I'm satisfied with my basses, I think the amp GAS bug might start biting. Right now I run a Markbass Little Mark II through a Schroeder 112. It's a great setup, but I'd love to buy another tube amp one day. When I was in high school, I saved all my money from work for half a year and bought a Mesa Boogie 400+. God I miss that amp. I had to sell it when I went to college, unfortunately. Now that I'm a senior (in college) and planning my future, I can start thinking about whether or not I want to buy another 400+ once I graduate. For you Starfire players that use tube amps, which one is your favorite?

 

[fronobulax]

http://www.guildbassparts.com/Home.html has posted here in the past, but can't recall seeing him here lately. I think he's in St. Louis so we can sic kevin the bass man on him if needed ;-) I'd ask him whether he can tweak the width if he built you a set.

I don't think I have ever seen a set of plastic saddles for sale. If your saddles are like mine you might be able to put a spacer between the plastic saddles to widen the spacing, as an alternative to new ones.

No experience here with tube amps. Ampeg B-15 perhaps?

 

[hieronymous]

Nice collection! Will try and post more thoughts later, for now, suffice it to say that I'm impressed!

 

[bassmyf]

One thing that I noticed is that the '64 has 16.5mm string spacing and the '69 has about 18 mm spacing. There's definitely a noticeable difference between the two. I'm not sure which I like better right now, but I'm leaning toward 18mm, so I might have to get some new saddles cut for the '64 at some point.

Very nice pair, and +1 to your luthier. Great job on that headstock refinish. I don`t believe Peter makes plastic saddles, but he definitly makes rosewood blanks that you can slot to your own spacing. I even have an aluminum set that he made, if your looking for just a bit more brightness. Had them on for a while, but went back to the rosewood. He does do nice work.

Jeff

 

[krysh]

peter told me he moved to alaska some months ago.

 

[fronobulax]

peter told me he moved to alaska some months ago.

I guess we can't sic kevin on him. Thanks for the update. I only know what he posted.

 

[Baz Cooper]

Ahhhh that -64 Starfire is a NICE BASS!!! just finished playing it. Met Mr. Alex this evening. He's been such a Big help to me in my restoration of my Jetstar, first finding the Darkstar and then the bridge. Thanks Alex. Pics coming soon from my pal Harry.

 

[bassmanpatsfan18]

Yep, Baz and I switched bridges. He had a harp bridge set up for wider spacing, just like I wanted, and I had a straight bridge set up for narrow spacing, like what he was looking for. The switch was painless and my '64 is much more comfortable to play on now.

Baz is an awesome guy and has some great basses. A beautiful non-reverse thunderbird and some killer 8-strings that he built himself. The jet star is coming along nicely as well. His Hiwatt half stack is pretty sweet too!

Thanks for all the kind words, guys.

 

[bassmanpatsfan18]

I need to find you a Starfire Truss rod cover and trade you....Why is it that Jet Stars are so hard to find??????

Yeah, that would be great. Mine on my '64 right now is just like the SF one except it doesn't say "Starfire" on it or have the north star. If you find a SF TRC, I'd be down to swap. I'll keep my eyes peeled too.

Hans--do you have any of those in stock?

 

[JimmyD]

I don't have a Starfire bass (I know, how can I even make it through the day) but I am running my fretless Washburn AB40 through my amps of choice....Ampeg B25 for small gigs, Ampeg V4B for bigger stages and an old SVT with the straigtback 8X10 to keep up with aurally obsessed guitar players. I use various cabs but usually stick with ten's. 70's Ampegs are still affordable and are what tube tone for bass, is all about. Even the late 90's, early 2000's, Ampeg V4BH is cool and quite a tone monster. Good luck in your search.

 

[bassmanpatsfan18]

Thanks for the input, JimmyD.

Has anyone ever tried a Starfire with an Orange AD200b? I've always liked the way those sound, but have never had the opportunity to try one out with a Guild.

 

[bassmanpatsfan18]

11/5 update:

My new wooded saddles from http://www.guildbassparts.com came last night. I just finished notching them and putting them on! New strings (Chromes), new saddles and a new 'Starfire' TRC should be on the way from Hans shortly!

The bass still plays and sounds beautifully.

One question: For those of you that have Dark Stars or Bi-Sonics, do you find that the strings line up well with the pole pieces on your Guilds? My bass has a bridge DS and while the A and D strings line up perfectly, both the G and E are sort of right over the inner half of the pole pieces. I haven't noticed any volume discrepancies between the strings. It would be silly to switch the pickup for one that lines up better, right?

 

[fronobulax]

11/5 update:

My new wooded saddles from http://www.guildbassparts.com came last night. I just finished notching them and putting them on! New strings (Chromes), new saddles and a new 'Starfire' TRC should be on the way from Hans shortly!

The bass still plays and sounds beautifully.

One question: For those of you that have Dark Stars or Bi-Sonics, do you find that the strings line up well with the pole pieces on your Guilds? My bass has a bridge DS and while the D and G strings line up perfectly, both the G and E are sort of right over the inner half of the pole pieces. I haven't noticed any volume discrepancies between the strings. It would be silly to switch the pickup for one that lines up better, right?

Let me direct your attention here where you will see a wide variety of samples.

This might be the best SF II for your purposes.

I'd say things are not lined up too neatly.

This is a SF I that I know well :wink: and the E string is centered and everything else is shifted to the treble side.

And forgive me for reiterating the obvious but the width of the saddles and just how you place them on the bridge "paddles" will make a difference.

All that said, I've never had a "problem" with my SF I that I thought was the related to pole piece positioning, but that could just be ignorance on my part.

 

[bassmanpatsfan18]

Thanks, Frono. I just plugged her in after putting on the new saddles and she sounds just as good as before if not better. It doesn't seem like there are any negative repercussions to the misaligned poles. The E and G are just as loud as the A and D. I'll take some more detailed pictures next week when I get the new TRC in.

 

[planetguy]

beautiful pair there but i think you need a few more j bass p/u's in that '69!

so, i'm curious did you put the BADASS I bridge on it or did it come like that? if it was your mod i'd be interested to hear what changes/differences you exp. i'd expect a brighter, more centered tone and of course more sustain.
i don't imagine the holes lined up w the originals but they seem to be covered by the replacement brdg.

as for tube amps. back when i had my first '67 SFII (late '70's) i used to run it thru a silver faced 50 watt FENDER Bassman head and a Dual Showman 2x12 cab. pretty spiffy. wish i had the bass AND that rig back. ah...the foolishness of youth.

 

[bassmanpatsfan18]

beautiful pair there but i think you need a few more j bass p/u's in that '69!

so, i'm curious did you put the BADASS I bridge on it or did it come like that? if it was your mod i'd be interested to hear what changes/differences you exp. i'd expect a brighter, more centered tone and of course more sustain.
i don't imagine the holes lined up w the originals but they seem to be covered by the replacement brdg.

as for tube amps. back when i had my first '67 SFII (late '70's) i used to run it thru a silver faced 50 watt FENDER Bassman head and a Dual Showman 2x12 cab. pretty spiffy. wish i had the bass AND that rig back. ah...the foolishness of youth.

Thanks! I didn't do any of the 'drastic' mods on the '69 except for the headstock (inlaying the Guild logo, refinishing it and putting on the hipshot tuners). I'm not really sure why the previous owner decided to go with the 4 Jazz pickups, but I can't complain too much. I always thought that the '69 sounded great as it was and didn't need Dark Stars or anything like that, but now that I have my '64 with a DS, I'm dying to find a set to put in the '69. With Fred Hammon's disappearance, it looks like I might have to wait a while. There have been rumors on www.talkbass.com of a Swedish company starting to reproduce Bi-Sonics, but I guess I'll believe it when I see it.

As for the bridge, it covers most of the original bridge's screw holes, but not all. As you can see, there is a triangular piece of black plastic right behind it that I imagine is there to cover up additional holes. I never played my '69 with its original bridge, but comparing it to other Starfires with original bridges that I've played (including my '64), I'd say that it does improve the sustain. It's hard to comment on tone since the '69 is fretless, so it sounds quite different to begin with. The Badass is also great in that it's infinitely more adjustable than the harp bridges. When intonating my '64 this weekend, I found that the height adjustment screws blocked the saddles in such a way that I could only intonate 2 out of the 4 strings accurately. Oh well, such is life.

On the amp front, I've discovered that after a few weeks with the '64, I've found EQ settings on my MarkBass Little Mark II amp that accentuate the tone of the bass/the Dark Star pickup and really make it sing (or rather 'growl'). By increasing the gain and the mids, I've gotten the whole setup to sound more like a tube amp almost. Once I get a job and graduate from college, I look forward to checking out a bunch of new and vintage tube amps. I would love to buy another Mesa 400+ and a 2x12 or 2x15 cab to accompany it, but I'm open to other options.

 

[bassmanpatsfan18]

Another update:

So I played the '64 in a band setting for the first time last week. Although I hadn't noticed any volume discrepancies between strings before, in a band setting, I found that the E and the G were noticeably quieter. I thought last week that this was due to the misaligned pole pieces and it looks as if I was right.

Here's a picture of my bass from last week:

So after some careful measuring, I figured out that the Dark Star I had was actually a DS-2 and I needed a DS-1. Luckily, Baz had a DS-1 and since he just got a Bisonic a few days ago, he agreed to switch with me. I went down to see him last night and we made the pickup swap.

I don't have a picture of the bass with the new pup, but the pole pieces all line up perfectly now and the bass sounds INFINITELY better. It must be my imagination, but all four strings sound better to me now, not just the E and G. Anyway, everything is much better balanced after the switch and I'm very happy.

Also, I just received a mint "Starfire" truss rod cover for my '64 in the mail today, so the bass is looking spiffy.

Now if only I could find another set of Dark Stars for my '69...damn you, Fred Hammon.