Are Corona Archtops As Iffy as Corona Flattops?

[Paddlefoot]

It's actually pretty easy to find out what is on the guitar since lacquer will soften with a bit of lacquer thinner brushed on it. I don't know how you would test for polyurethane but shellac (french polish) is easy too as alcohol is the solvent for the shellac. Don't be knockin' back a shot of JD while you are playing your french polished classical guitar or fiddle. Of course you have to test in an area that wont be seen or on a guitar that is in need of serious repair anyway.

 

[taabru45]

So Paddlefoot, what happens if someone has used a polish at one time that has some silicone in it?
By the way, I really appreciate your knowledge, and experience, as well as the efforts you put into your posts, thank you my friend. 8) Steffan

 

[jazzmang]

I've owned several guitars with NCL and several others with Poly.

Just from me knowing the guitars, tt is my strong opinion that Tacoma used NCL. I have identical D-55s from Westerly and Tacoma sitting side by side. They both have identical finishes.

Poly finishes will never feel tacky after a long playing session with a sweaty hand. NCL, on the other hand, does.

I'm pretty sure its one of those characteristic Guild 'non-negotiables' that the high-end American guitars be finished in NCL.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[chazmo]

OK, as I understand it. The Tacoma built Guilds have the uv cured finish which I believe was meant to mimic the thin hard composition of lacquer. I agree that it looks very much like a thin NCL finish as you do see the "print"of the wood grain through it. I do like the sound of most of the Tacoma Guilds I have heard so no concern there. Problem is that finish seems to be reactive to something in the padding of a string swing or it doesn't cure all the way through as well as it was thought to have. Most of the Tacoma Guilds I have seen had the hanger marks under the peghead. I have seen the hanger marks on a Corona Guild but most I have or have seen are really nicely finished and seem to be as durable as any known NCL finished guitar. Maybe I took in too much territory saying that Corona Guilds are polyurethane finished based on one of mine that seems to be finished in poly. Poly is difficult for repairmen as it needs to be sealed to allow the repair finish to stick over the dry poly coats. There are a few different ways to do this but basically it is a pain and should be avoided. Possibly both NCL and poly were in use at Corona as Fender still sends guitars to Mexico to be sprayed in NCL for the thin skin and some vintage models. The standard American Strats and Teles have a vinyl primer/undercoat on the wood and this is to stop the "printing" of the grain and act as a primer for the poly color coats. An enviro and production friendly finish. I guess we could speculate that Fender/Guild tried the uv finish here in Corona and that would account for the one X-150 sb I had that had the hanger melt marks on it but there is no evidence to support that, just speculation. It appears there is plenty of advertising to show that Fender did finish a significant number of guitars with NCL so I guess I would call that a plus for those instruments. I still like my Corona Guilds and would not hesitate to buy a nice specimen of any model that was built there.

Finish types will be first on my list of questions for our factory tour in New Hartford. This has been a great discussion. It seems likely to me that the transition to both Corona and Tacoma were met with finishing changes that were a result of whatever the factory was already using. If Fender was into UV poly in Corona, then that seems likely. In Tacoma, we have my evidence from the Tacoma brochure that says gloss finish was UV cured. We already know the folks in Tacoma were hell-bent on creativity, so this doens't surprise me at all. So, I'm willing to accept that my F-512 from Tacoma is poly finished! Can I just say that my Tacoma-built F-512 suffers absolutely *nothing* in tone. Clearly, whatever they did with their process did not sacrifice projection and resonance.

One thing... Corona was not unique with finish issues. We had multiple posts around here on Tacoma-built Guilds that had finish problems on the necks (if I recall). and at certain seams.

Anyway, best wishes.

 

[Darryl Hattenhauer]

By the way, I really appreciate your knowledge, and experience, as well as the efforts you put into your posts, thank you my friend.

Ditto

my Tacoma-built F-512 suffers absolutely *nothing* in tone.

Then Coronas probably don't either, if they're UV cured. Does anybody have a guesstimate on how many Corona polys were uv cured and how many weren't?

BTW, I did see one Corona (an F 50) with the peghead hanger marks.

 

[Paddlefoot]

Thanks guys, I try to be as accurate as I can and add a little if possible. The whole art of guitar building has always fascinated me.
Before we get any Guild myths set in concrete let me just remind everyone that the possibility of the uv poly finish at Corona is really just a speculative guess based on seeing a few guitars scattered around that had that hanger rash under the peghead. Hanger rash seems quite common on the Tacoma guitars that we can find pretty good evidence of having that finish. It seems that folks who have or have had the Tacoma guitars are happy with the sound so there is no issue there. I have and have had a number of Corona built guitars and really have no complaints about either the finish or the sound. Basically I'd say if it's Guild it's a pretty good guitar.
For Steffan, As others have said, DO NOT use anything with silicone on your guitar! You will only make yourself and the luthier very unhappy if the instrument ever needs repair work. The stuff is like radioactive contamination, trying to clean it up just gets more stuff contaminated over a bigger area. Some luthiers will say the same about wax based products but that becomes as big an argument as what strings are the best and what color is prettiest. I see no problem with good wax products as long as you use your head and dont slop it all over. If you see something that looks like it could develop into a finish check or a crack, keep wax away from that so you don't have issues if a repair is eventually needed.

 

[adorshki]

Adhorshki,

From those discussions, poly should retard the sound of an acoustic, but make no difference on a solidbody. But what about things in the middle like hollow starfires? Apparently Guild put poly on those even before they left RI.

hf

Darryl: This would just be educated hypothesis but in the electric mode I doubt the finish would make any measurable difference. In acoustic mode, I stand by the basic principle of harder thinner finish (NCL) being better. But I doubt if that would be measurable either on that body style. What I am skeptical of is whether any Starfires actually left Westerly with poly finish. Anything I can remember reading about Westerly indicates NCL finishes exclusively. BUT Hans has caught me out before on my poor memory... and somebody on this thread already mentioned Corona Starfires...I'd think they'd be the more likely suspects from what we're seeing here.

 

[adorshki]

I've owned several guitars with NCL and several others with Poly.

Just from me knowing the guitars, tt is my strong opinion that Tacoma used NCL. I have identical D-55s from Westerly and Tacoma sitting side by side. They both have identical finishes.

Poly finishes will never feel tacky after a long playing session with a sweaty hand. NCL, on the other hand, does.

I'm pretty sure its one of those characteristic Guild 'non-negotiables' that the high-end American guitars be finished in NCL.

Just my 2 cents.

Yes, in fact it's my understanding that sweat is NCL's biggest enemy (the acids/salts) and this seems to be born out on my D25. There's a permanent hazy spot on the upper bass bout from where my forearm rested for many hours on a many a hot summer day. First noticed it when I tried to polish it out a couple of years back and by golly it stayed tacky overnight before the polish (Martin) dried. It'll buff out dry easily now but you can see the haze if you look at it on an angle. I can't see any of that developing on the D40 but by then I'd learned a little and it always gets wiped down and in fact never leaves the house so never gets sweated on too much.

 

[adorshki]

So Paddlefoot, what happens if someone has used a polish at one time that has some silicone in it?
By the way, I really appreciate your knowledge, and experience, as well as the efforts you put into your posts, thank you my friend. 8) Steffan

Hi Steffan: Just to expound a little on what Paddlefoot already addressed, My understanding is that silicone will contaminate the wood and that makes any future refininshing extremely problematic. Finish (NCL at least) won't adhere to silicone contaminated wood. I think one of the articles on frets.com explains silicone doesn't actually get absorbed into NCL, but now that I think about it, how sure can you be it's not getting into microcopic pits and cracks?

 

[Paddlefoot]

Well I have made an error I drug out the SFII today ( This is the one I was told had the Polyurethane finish on it due to the buffer burn marks) I was sure it was a Corona guitar but there on the inside label was Westerly R.I. ....so now what do we know? I should have written down the serial # and checked it through Hans but I was in a hurry.

 

[chazmo]

Paddlefoot,

I have nothing to add on the mystery of your Westerly guitar, nor do I have any info on the Corona guitars. However I do have an update on Tacoma...

While it is true that Tacoma used a UV cured poly finish on their gloss finishes, Woody Brackett (a luthier over at the Tacoma forum) says the Guilds there were finished in NCL I'm in the process of finding out how he knows that - presumably first hand either from seeing it or from working on one. I will keep you posted.

Does anyone have confirmation (other than the Guild web page) that the New Hartford models are being built with NCL? And, in the recent dealer summit at the factory did anyone discuss finishing with them?

 

[gusto]

read this guys, heres some good info on poly vs nitro



Here is the other famous Mark Kendrick message I post all the itme when the nitro vs poly subject comes up.

I like Kendrick he tells it like it is.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pardon my typos. I've lost alot of brain cells in my day. Could it be the 'Nitro'.

The first Fender lap steel was finished in black enamel. When Doc Kauffman and Leo formed K&F guitars in 1945, their original instruments, including the amplifiers, were finished in a lead based, wrinkle coat enamel. A nice shade of Battleship Grey. That was the only color available. After expermenting with different woods other than pine for guitars, they began using nitrocellulose lacquer. They used what was available to the furniture trade at the time.

The original colors were blonde, sunburst, etc... just like your Grandmas coffee table.

Custom colors were introduced in 1955. Once again they were enamel. The same material they used in the auto industry. The enamel would not adhere to the stearate based nitocellulose sanding sealer. Acrylic lacquers were then developed by Dupont to be sprayed on material other than metal. "Duco colors". In order for the paint to adhere, Fender began using a Sherwin Williams product called Homoclad. It was a penetrating, heavy solid, oil based sealer used as a barrier coat to to provide better adhesion for their guitars with custom colors. It was applied by dipping the guitar bodies directly into a 55 gallon drum, filled with the product. ALL Fender guitars produced after 1955 used this product until 1967, when Fender began experimenting with polyesters an undercoat.

By 1968, virtually all Fender guitar products used polyester as an undercoat, including necks. It's a two part product using Methyl Ethyl Ketone(MEK) as a catalyst. The reason the face of the pegheads were not sealed with polyester, is because type 'C' decals (under the finish) would not adhere to the product. While it is true a few guitars may have squeaked by with homoclad, when homoclad wasn't available, they used a Fuller O'Brian product called Ful-O-Plast. PLASTIC!!! It's obvious to me that those necks or bodies were stragglers, having to be reworked for some reason or another and not shipped after the change.

I'd like to make one thing clear... ALL FENDER GUITARS PRODUCED AFTER 1968 HAD A POLYESTER UNDERCOAT WITH A LACQUER TOPCOAT!!! There is no specific ratio. Enough poly was, and is sprayed to properly fill the grain while preventig a burn through while sanding.

In 1983, Fender began using polyuerthane as a topcoat. It cured quicker. It had better clarity. It had more depth and gloss, and didn't melt when you accidently spilled 151 on it. Fender then discontinued the use of polyester on the necks. Polyurethane is a 2 part product using a catalyst.

Fender has continued to use polyester, polyurethane, nitro, homoclad, and Ful-O-Plast.

Nitro is not a superior finish. An electric guitar doesn't 'breathe' at 120 db.

I like Nitro colors too. But maybe I'll let the players that use poly (ester or urethane) speak for themselves...

Billy Gibbons, Geddy Lee, Alex Lifeson, Joe Perry, Jimi Hendrix, Eric Clapton, Roccco Prestia, Jimmie Vaughn, Nils Lofgren, Vince Gill, Chet Atkins, Tom Hamilton, Lenny Kravitz, Merle Haggard, Don Rich, Darryl Jones, Mike Stern, Larry Carlton, Peter Frampton, Sting, Marty Stuart, just to name a few. More are available upon request.

Hope this helps,

Mark K.

 

[chazmo]

read this guys, heres some good info on poly vs nitro



Here is the other famous Mark Kendrick message I post all the itme when the nitro vs poly subject comes up.

I like Kendrick he tells it like it is.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pardon my typos. I've lost alot of brain cells in my day. Could it be the 'Nitro'.

The first Fender lap steel was finished in black enamel. When Doc Kauffman and Leo formed K&F guitars in 1945, their original instruments, including the amplifiers, were finished in a lead based, wrinkle coat enamel. A nice shade of Battleship Grey. That was the only color available. After expermenting with different woods other than pine for guitars, they began using nitrocellulose lacquer. They used what was available to the furniture trade at the time.

The original colors were blonde, sunburst, etc... just like your Grandmas coffee table.

Custom colors were introduced in 1955. Once again they were enamel. The same material they used in the auto industry. The enamel would not adhere to the stearate based nitocellulose sanding sealer. Acrylic lacquers were then developed by Dupont to be sprayed on material other than metal. "Duco colors". In order for the paint to adhere, Fender began using a Sherwin Williams product called Homoclad. It was a penetrating, heavy solid, oil based sealer used as a barrier coat to to provide better adhesion for their guitars with custom colors. It was applied by dipping the guitar bodies directly into a 55 gallon drum, filled with the product. ALL Fender guitars produced after 1955 used this product until 1967, when Fender began experimenting with polyesters an undercoat.

By 1968, virtually all Fender guitar products used polyester as an undercoat, including necks. It's a two part product using Methyl Ethyl Ketone(MEK) as a catalyst. The reason the face of the pegheads were not sealed with polyester, is because type 'C' decals (under the finish) would not adhere to the product. While it is true a few guitars may have squeaked by with homoclad, when homoclad wasn't available, they used a Fuller O'Brian product called Ful-O-Plast. PLASTIC!!! It's obvious to me that those necks or bodies were stragglers, having to be reworked for some reason or another and not shipped after the change.

I'd like to make one thing clear... ALL FENDER GUITARS PRODUCED AFTER 1968 HAD A POLYESTER UNDERCOAT WITH A LACQUER TOPCOAT!!! There is no specific ratio. Enough poly was, and is sprayed to properly fill the grain while preventig a burn through while sanding.

In 1983, Fender began using polyuerthane as a topcoat. It cured quicker. It had better clarity. It had more depth and gloss, and didn't melt when you accidently spilled 151 on it. Fender then discontinued the use of polyester on the necks. Polyurethane is a 2 part product using a catalyst.

Fender has continued to use polyester, polyurethane, nitro, homoclad, and Ful-O-Plast.

Nitro is not a superior finish. An electric guitar doesn't 'breathe' at 120 db.

I like Nitro colors too. But maybe I'll let the players that use poly (ester or urethane) speak for themselves...

Billy Gibbons, Geddy Lee, Alex Lifeson, Joe Perry, Jimi Hendrix, Eric Clapton, Roccco Prestia, Jimmie Vaughn, Nils Lofgren, Vince Gill, Chet Atkins, Tom Hamilton, Lenny Kravitz, Merle Haggard, Don Rich, Darryl Jones, Mike Stern, Larry Carlton, Peter Frampton, Sting, Marty Stuart, just to name a few. More are available upon request.

Hope this helps,

Mark K.

Gusto,

Interesting read, but I take it this is applicable to solidbodies only, right? I mean, I certainly hope no one in Tacoma dipped my F-512 in a vat of Homoclad!

Some of this might explain how a solidbody that's got an outer finish in nitro could have a tacky undercoating when sanded, I guess.