Advice on d35 headstock

[repetitionandnoise]

Howdy everyone,

Can anyone tell me what’s going on around the headstock under the veneer on this old d35? If you look at the photos you’ll see a straight “crack” (if you want to call it that) that goes from the nut all the way around the headstock back to the other side of the nut. Any ideas or repair advice would be greatly appreciated!

 

[GardMan]

It looks to me like that there are two layers of laminated veneer, a mahogany layer and then the black layer, and that the mahogany layer is delaminating from headstock proper. The period when D-35s rec'd a headstock lamination was pretty short ('68- into '69). I wasn't aware that there were two layers... maybe @hansmoust will chime in.

As for repair, if they are really delaminating, it would likely require removing the veneers and regluing them. OTOH, it might just be a finish crack at that joint, due to differential expansion of the layers either from temp or humidity). If it's just a finish crack, I'd likely leave it be...

 

[AcornHouse]

It's typical for the headstock overlays of this era, which are a plastic, to shrink and pull away from the wood. Best thing is to clean out any glue and recluse the edges without removing the veneers completely or even taking the tuners off.
What will happen is that the shrinkage that has been confined by the tuner posts will now have free rein and you'll find that the tuner holes will no longer line up.

 

[repetitionandnoise]

It's typical for the headstock overlays of this era, which are a plastic, to shrink and pull away from the wood. Best thing is to clean out any glue and recluse the edges without removing the veneers completely or even taking the tuners off.
What will happen is that the shrinkage that has been confined by the tuner posts will now have free rein and you'll find that the

It's typical for the headstock overlays of this era, which are a plastic, to shrink and pull away from the wood. Best thing is to clean out any glue and recluse the edges without removing the veneers completely or even taking the tuners off.
What will happen is that the shrinkage that has been confined by the tuner posts will now have free rein and you'll find that the tuner holes will no longer line up.

I’ve seen some where the veneer shrinks and exposes the pearl sheet underneath. But on this one it looks like the veneer hasn’t shrunk but instead has risen on some of the edges. It’s noticeable on a couple of the photos around the corners. I can’t tell if the wood is cracked or if it’s just the layer of the veneer rising maybe? I don’t know!!

 

[BradHK]

As others have noted, the vintage Guild headstock veneer had two layers. The black plastic on top and the veneer underneath. That “crack” is just the line between the veneer under the black outside plastic veneer and the headstock where the glue bond has let go at the edges. Nothing structural and no need to fix anything unless you want to for aesthetic reasons. If you take the truss rod cover off you can see the layers of veneer more clearly.

 

[repetitionandnoise]

I’ve seen some where the veneer shrinks and exposes the pearl sheet underneath. But on this one it looks like the veneer hasn’t shrunk but instead has risen on some of the edges. It’s noticeable on a couple of the photos around the corners. I can’t tell if the wood is cracked or if it’s just the layer of the veneer rising maybe? I don’t know

As others have noted, the vintage Guild headstock veneer had two layers. The black plastic on top and the veneer underneath. That “crack” is just the line between the veneer under the black outside plastic veneer and the headstock where the glue bond has let go at the edges. Nothing structural and no need to fix anything unless you want to for aesthetic reasons. If you take the truss rod cover off you can see the layers of veneer more clearly.

Ok I think I’m able to visualize what’s going on a little better with that description. Appreciate the responses. Definitely clears things up!

 

[SFIV1967]

Here is an example of shrinking. Those are very old unused headstock veneers still made from Celluloid. As you can see the black celluloid in the first picture is shrinking whereas the base layer (which seems to be some kind of resin compound or countertop material, not wood) stays in perfect rectangular shape. Now depending which glue is stronger (glue between celluloid and baselayer or glue betwen baselayer and guitar neck material) there could be various results on a finished guitar where you have the additional forces of the lacquer.




Ralf

 

[wileypickett]

Where do you fins this stuff Ralf?!

I've been describing that backing piece as "formica."

Not sure if that's what it really is -- but it's something similar.

 

[SFIV1967]

I've been describing that backing piece as "formica." Not sure if that's what it really is -- but it's something similar.

I have not really spent time analyzing what it is, I still have one and need to use it for a headstock repair, just had no time yet. But I'd say it is not formica (as long as I know what exactly formica is and if there are different kind), it's some kind of similar material. It feels like something between a hard birch plywood and a very hard kind of cardboard. Not like plastic or so.
I guess Hans might know what material it is. I'm also not sure how old they are, they look like from the 60s to me and that is what it will be used for in my case.

Ralf

 

[repetitionandnoise]

Hey guys, shifting gears here.. in case you haven’t figured it out, I’m considering purchasing this guitar and I have another question maybe you can help me out. There is a tiny crack on the edge of the sound hole on the bridge end of the hole. Any cause for concern? I’d feel like it would be more of a problem on the opposite side. Any thoughts?

 

[adorshki]

I have not really spent time analyzing what it is, I still have one and need to use it for a headstock repair, just had no time yet. But I'd say it is not formica (as long as I know what exactly formica is and if there are different kind), it's some kind of similar material. It feels like something between a hard birch plywood and a very hard kind of cardboard. Not like plastic or so.
I guess Hans might know what material it is. I'm also not sure how old they are, they look like from the 60s to me and that is what it will be used for in my case.

Ralf

Chris Cozad reported they were fiberboard, on his '70's Guilds, at least.

 

[geoguy]

Hey guys, shifting gears here.. in case you haven’t figured it out, I’m considering purchasing this guitar and I have another question maybe you can help me out. There is a tiny crack on the edge of the sound hole on the bridge end of the hole. Any cause for concern? I’d feel like it would be more of a problem on the opposite side. Any thoughts?

It doesn't appear to extend past the first ring on the rosette. Assuming that it isn't due to the pickguard shrinking, if it were mine, I might just wipe a little wood glue into that crack after the guitar was properly humidified.

 

[wileypickett]

Chris Cozad reported they were fiberboard, on his '70's Guilds, at least.

It's not a wood- or paper-based material. After I removed the shrinking headstock veneers on the two guitars that came to me this way, I cleaned up that underlying white layer -- removing all the glue and lightly sanding it before gluing the veneer back -- and whatever it is, it's completely waterproof -- like whatever they make kitchen counter-tops out of.

 

[adorshki]

It's not a wood- or paper-based material. After I removed the shrinking headstock veneers on the two guitars that came to me this way, I cleaned up that underlying white layer -- removing all the glue and lightly sanding it before gluing the veneer back -- and whatever it is, it's completely waterproof -- like whatever they make kitchen counter-tops out of.

Nitrocellulose plastic perhaps? Seems like it would be a logical and cheap choice? Ever test it with something like acetone?

 

[wileypickett]

Definitely not plastic. I may have used a little Goo-Gone on a rag to help dissolve the old glue, but not acetone.

Whatever that white material is, it cleaned up fast and perfectly — no stains, no streaks, no discoloration. In that regard it’s like counter-top material too. It’s hardy stuff — doesn’t mar or scratch easily

The headstock veneer, which IS plastic, was much harder to clean. It took a while to get the old glue off.

(Anyone whose tried to remove old glue from the back of a pickguard will know what I’m talking about!)

 

[davismanLV]

It looks to me like that there are two layers of laminated veneer, a mahogany layer and then the black layer, and that the mahogany layer is delaminating from headstock proper. The period when D-35s rec'd a headstock lamination was pretty short ('68- into '69). I wasn't aware that there were two layers... maybe @hansmoust will chime in.

As for repair, if they are really delaminating, it would likely require removing the veneers and regluing them. OTOH, it might just be a finish crack at that joint, due to differential expansion of the layers either from temp or humidity). If it's just a finish crack, I'd likely leave it be...

What Dave said ^^ up there!! There's two layers and it looks like mahogany over mahogany and THEN a veneer for the final headstock..... I see two layers. Not sure what that's about. Everyone can say that the faceplate veneers shrink over time... and that may be PART of what were seeing here.... strange situation!!

 

[chazmo]

Hey guys, shifting gears here.. in case you haven’t figured it out, I’m considering purchasing this guitar and I have another question maybe you can help me out. There is a tiny crack on the edge of the sound hole on the bridge end of the hole. Any cause for concern? I’d feel like it would be more of a problem on the opposite side. Any thoughts?

First of all, if I haven't already welcomed you... Welcome aboard!

I wouldn't be concerned about that crack. As you correctly mention, the position of the crack is not in a bad place. I probably would have it cleated though, at some point, and make sure that the guitar gets a proper dose of humidity when you get it. I'd slack the strings and over-humidify with multiple damp-its for a couple of weeks.

Good luck!

 

[chazmo]

Chris Cozad reported they were fiberboard, on his '70's Guilds, at least.

Whatever material it is, it is clearly affected by outgassing and subject to deformation over time. Fiberboard rings a bell for me too, but I don't know if fiberboard reacts that way.

Pickguards are affected the same way, and I think "celluloid" is the name I've heard used for that material. The headstock veneer is probably related.

 

[SFIV1967]

Chris Cozad reported they were fiberboard, on his '70's Guilds, at least.

I believe Chris was talking about that the black veneer itself, which was changed from Celluloid to black fiberboard. I don't think he was talking about the second egg shell colord layer. The OPs guitar is a 60s model, not a 70s model.

Nitrocellulose plastic perhaps? Seems like it would be a logical and cheap choice? Ever test it with something like acetone?

The black was Celluloid (nitrocellulose based), not the second layer.

Pickguards are affected the same way, and I think "celluloid" is the name I've heard used for that material. The headstock veneer is probably related.

The black veneer in the 1960s Guilds was made from Celluloid, not the light layer below. Look at my pictures in post #7 of the veneers where the black Celluloid shrunk but not the base layer.

There's two layers and it looks like mahogany over mahogany and THEN a veneer for the final headstock...

Yes two layers as my post #7 shows. The black is Celluloid (hence shrinking) but the base layer is not wood

Whatever that white material is, it cleaned up fast and perfectly — no stains, no streaks, no discoloration. In that regard it’s like counter-top material too. It’s hardy stuff — doesn’t mar or scratch easily

Makes sense to me. I will "investigate" further when I put it on the headstock and cut it, but that might take a while, means months or even years, I have too much of a backlog of other things to do on other guitars first...and many things outside guitars,

Ralf

 

[wileypickett]

^^ What Ralf said. ^^