Additional Starfire Bass Input

[idealassets]

Last week on ebay I had my hopes up for winning this very nice bass: http://www.ebay.com/itm/190567536563?ssPageName=STRK:MEDWX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1435.l2649 Meanwhile I let 2 other 1966 or 67 Starfires go for $1500 and $1600 on ebay, thinking I would stretch to buy the nice maple finish (listed above), ending 2 days later. It went for >$4100, which was just out of my range. This was after no offer from the seller of written documentation that the guitar was used for Beck and Nine Inch Nails recordings, or proof of who the prior owner was.

So my search to aquire any SF bass continues. I have located a few available that I am negotiating to buy, and not at a modest price either. I began wanting a Starfire bass about 6 months ago, and found that takes time to home in on what features to settle for.

So to help in the process here are a few more items I would like to nail down, with your help:

1. How big of a consideration is the short scale sound (I like the sound of Chris Hillman's stock SF bass). What complaints might other band musicians have about the sound? This will determine how many basses to own. (1 Starfire & 1 Rickenbacker 4003 perhaps)

2. How important is the Strafire I bass gain switch (baritone switch)?

3. How major of a feature is the Starfire II, compared to SF I? (I suppose a SF I is a good starting point, if no SF II is available)

4. Were there far more SF I's sold than SF II's?

Thanks again,
Craig

 

[fronobulax]

The eBay auction text said

Also, upon request, we can have Justin provide a signed Letter of Authenticity for any items purchased!

so your beef may be because they would not provide the documentation before purchase. If they fail to provide the documentation to the purchaser upon request then they clearly are not meeting the terms they set in the ad and even the pro-seller eBay complaint process would be hard pressed to rule against the buyer.

1) Jack Casady elected to go with a long scale for his signature bass even though he was extremely familiar with Starfires. I physically cannot play a long scale bass for any length of time so it really doesn't matter to me what other people think of the scale length's contribution to the sound. If I'm playing you get the short scale sound. If you don't like it you change bass players I also wonder if you are over analyzing things here since there are no factory Starfires in a long scale. So your question is only relavent if you are considering giving up on a Starfire because of the short scale sound.

2) I've been told the tone switch is different on Starfires and JS basses. It doesn't seem to hurt anything on a JS but several people have reported improvements in Starfires when the switch is disabled. All other things being equal, I'd probably buy the Starfire without the switch. However I can't imagine it taking more than an hour of a luthier's time to disable it so the presence or absence might change a comparable price by $75 but otherwise would not drive my buying decision.

3) You should learn to use Search. There was a discussion of SF I vs. SF II a while back. mgod's opinion is the one I would look for. I believe I started things by postulating that a Starfire II was gilding :wink: the lily. I think mellowgerman said that a middle/bridge position SF I was a different tonal beast than the neck position on a SF II or a later SF I and mgod ended it by saying that he used the neck position more but he used both on a SF II and would normally prefer a SF II to a neck position SF I. Telling you to search is not a slap at you saying you should have searched before posting the question. It just means that I am too lazy at the moment to do it for you and do think you would be better off reading the original than trusting my recollection thereof.

4) I don't know production numbers at various times. That would be one for Hans. I do know that SF II's with the straight bridge seem to be much rarer than SF I's with the same bridge. Since the bridge change and the tone switch both occurred in 1967 I think it is safe to say that a SF II with the switch will be easier to find than one without it.

BTW, when I pontificate on Starfire basses, unless I say otherwise, it is presumed that I am only talking about basses with Hagstrom Bi-sonics which would mean 1970 or older.

 

[mellowgerman]

I am convinced that the all too common "short scale sound" argument is completely misleading in every way. I guarantee it all came about in regard to Gibson short scale basses of the 60's and 70's, which for the most part got nothing but super fat, muddy sound. Not necessarily a bad thing, but certainly a matter of taste. Somehow it seems to me this ended up being blamed more on scale length than the fact that there is a HUGE Gibson humbucker in the far neck position of these basses. Long scale or short scale, you'll almost definitely end up with mud with that PU configuration.
The starfire on the other hand (assuming it has bisonics or dark stars), especially SFB-II's and the early SFB-I's with the middle/bridge positon pickup are just as, if not more, articulate and capable of cutting through the mix than most long scale basses of any make.
I've owned a lot of basses, including a '66 SFB-I (like the $3500 one on ebay) and a Dark Starred Dearmond Starfire. These were hands down two of the most present and bold sounding basses I've ever had the pleasure of playing in a group. They'll sound fatter than a jazz bass and cut through better than a precision bass.
Things get subjective once you get into the tone department... but just listen to Jack and Phil to see where you stand on that matter

 

[mgod]

For years no one made decent strings for a short scale bass. About 25 years to be exact. The great short scale recordings are mostly 1970 and before. In the mid 90s T-I changed that.

But you can't play a Starfire bass with T-I strings the same way you'd play a P with LaBellas. If you do, the problem isn't the bass or the strings, its the musician.

Regarding the switch, I bypass them. I find them useless.

PS - amazing to me that that piece of junk modern SF went for over $4k. Guess the prices are going up again.

 

[fronobulax]

PS - amazing to me that that piece of junk modern SF went for over $4k. Guess the prices are going up again.

It was pretty and did have Dark Stars but...

+1

 

[idealassets]

so your beef may be because they would not provide the documentation before purchase. If they fail to provide the documentation to the purchaser upon request then they clearly are not meeting the terms they set in the ad and even the pro-seller eBay complaint process would be hard pressed to rule against the buyer.

I did not have a beef necessarily about the minute stuff, merely attempting to figure how much more I could value this guitar at, after already bidding $2050.

More than 2 days before the auction ended they did not respond to my email concerning how and when I would get the documentation of ownership. In a prior inquiry I asked about the condition of the case, since the image was a little dark. I was interested in knowing that it was not just be the original case, but what condition, and was everything working? I was told "its in the images". I was looking for something, such as "all working, and with the key". I let them know THat I had already bid >$2000, and was wanting to determine what I might bid to win. The norm is that at the time of the sale the documentation is advertised intact with the item, and ready to go.

An example would be when I attended the late Steve McQueen's estate auction in Las Vegas. Each item, no matter how signicicant or small, would come furnished with a document describing the item, and with the actual signature by his surving sun and daughter. These "certificates" were ready, photographed, and on display with each auto, cycle, guitar, stage prop, or personal memorabilia when the sale commenced. No fuss, no muss.

You can believe that when I went to re-sell my Steve McQueen collectible items, the buyers foremost concern was for the ownership document to be included, and was as important to them as the vehilce title was.

Craig

 

[idealassets]

You should learn to use Search. There was a discussion of SF I vs. SF II a while back

I remember reading that post when it was "live" on LTG, and new comments came in every day. What I got from it where some good opinions from folks who play them. I recently also read every LTG post on SF basses that are still online, with a few back to 2005.

 

[mellowgerman]

don't mean to veer, but I just revisited this thread because I read the title as you wanting to make your starfire bass stereo :roll: :lol:

 

[idealassets]

Additional Starfire Bass Input

This title meaning was intended to be "more information", not necessarily another cord input for stereo. The Rickenbacker model 4003 comes with a stereo connecor as standard. If I ever want stereo this is what I would get. I believe that other Ric basses (and guitars) may have the "Ric-O-Sound" stereo connection as well. I own a Ric 12 string electric guitar, and have found that their blog site http://www.rickresource.com/forum/index.php is a good resource to go to. But for acoustics and vintage electrics I like to go to LTG.

As a result of getting some great information about SF basses on LTG, I have purchased a 1972 SF II (cherry) that I should have in my posession within about a week. Although its not one of the early issues, at least I will have ONE. I will post some images when it arrives.

I am very into originality, so I will never modify an instrument that I own. I believe that Jack Casady and Phil Lesh were masters at the art of customization. I have read a bit about Jack Casady's mod's to his Guild Basses at: flyguitars.com (Website info also given to me on LTG). He reflects back to a time in the 60's when the current vintage guitars were the latest technology.

Craig