2023 Guild Starfire V Tone or Lack of Twang

[captainvideo]

So I've been messing around with my 2023 Guild Starfire V all weekend.
I played a 2023 made in China Epiphone Riviera and a 2006 made in Japan Elitist Riviera and off the bridge pickup I'm able to achieve a brighter "twang" tone than on the Starfire V.

Not a fair comparison with the Rivieras I know. Those guitars both have some import variation of mini humbuckers. So I pulled out my Epiphone USA Casino with p90s no surprise there I can get a bright twang out of the p90s but being a full hollow body its a VASTLY different construction than than the Rivieras. But still brighter than the Starfire V.

So is it the pickups? Well I pulled out my 2016 Thunderbird S-200 which has the same pickups as the Starfire V. Another poor comparison solid body to semi but those pickups have that brighter twang on the Thunderbird than the Starfire.

Anyone else notice this with their Starfire? Is it the wood base bridge? I've had Gretches that didn't have this problem so I doubt that. Any thoughts?

 

[BradHK]

Have you tried adjusting the pickup height on the Starfire? I don’t have a new Starfire so I have no personal experience with that guitar, but adjusting the pickup height on the vintage Anti-hum pickups changes their tone.

 

[GAD]

LB1s? Those pickups are known to be unbalanced in that the neck is hotter than the bridge. Could that be what you’re experiencing?

 

[captainvideo]

LB1s? Those pickups are known to be unbalanced in that the neck is hotter than the bridge. Could that be what you’re experiencing?

Yeah LB1s but the same as the ones the 2016 Thunderbird. If "hotter" is defining volume/output no. It's more of a bright tone lack than volume. I would say the Starfire sounds like it has the tone control rolled down to about 7 compared to all the other guitars.

 

[captainvideo]

Have you tried adjusting the pickup height on the Starfire? I don’t have a new Starfire so I have no personal experience with that guitar, but adjusting the pickup height on the vintage Anti-hum pickups changes their tone.

Once I noticed the Thunderbird was brighter I set the pickups to identical heights as that guitar and still not as "bright"

 

[Walter Broes]

The Starfire V has four pots + a master volume. That's quite a bit of capacitance for two humbuckers if you like brightness and twang.

 

[swiveltung]

So I've been messing around with my 2023 Guild Starfire V all weekend.
I played a 2023 made in China Epiphone Riviera and a 2006 made in Japan Elitist Riviera and off the bridge pickup I'm able to achieve a brighter "twang" tone than on the Starfire V.

Not a fair comparison with the Rivieras I know. Those guitars both have some import variation of mini humbuckers. So I pulled out my Epiphone USA Casino with p90s no surprise there I can get a bright twang out of the p90s but being a full hollow body its a VASTLY different construction than than the Rivieras. But still brighter than the Starfire V.

So is it the pickups? Well I pulled out my 2016 Thunderbird S-200 which has the same pickups as the Starfire V. Another poor comparison solid body to semi but those pickups have that brighter twang on the Thunderbird than the Starfire.

Anyone else notice this with their Starfire? Is it the wood base bridge? I've had Gretches that didn't have this problem so I doubt that. Any thoughts?

I can tell you this: Sometimes it's just the guitar itself. I say this because I had an Ibanez George Benson that was a beauty of an archtop. Abalone inlays, multi binding, played like a dream. But the guitar was warm sounding. Jazzy warm, even with tones on 10. I cant remember what pots were in it at this point but they were pretty normal values. I played it a lot at Duo gigs, but found myself wanting more "cut" and picking nuance .
Over the period of a year I tried various pickups, other Humbuckers, a Strat pickup and a Lace Sensor adapted to fit, other things like a treble bleed mod. Different bridges. (The guitar came from the factory with two bridges; a TOM and a wood bridge.) NOTHING changed the basic character of that guitar. Finally I sold it, but I kinda miss it.

It's entirely possible it's just that Starfire or that particular Starfire model. I dont have one. Or I wonder if it's miswired inside?
Here is the GB with a Lace Sensor in it.

 

[steveintampa]

I can tell you this: Sometimes it's just the guitar itself. I say this because I had an Ibanez George Benson that was a beauty of an archtop. Abalone inlays, multi binding, played like a dream. But the guitar was warm sounding. Jazzy warm, even with tones on 10. I cant remember what pots were in it at this point but they were pretty normal values. I played it a lot at Duo gigs, but found myself wanting more "cut" and picking nuance .
Over the period of a year I tried various pickups, other Humbuckers, a Strat pickup and a Lace Sensor adapted to fit, other things like a treble bleed mod. Different bridges. (The guitar came from the factory with two bridges; a TOM and a wood bridge.) NOTHING changed the basic character of that guitar. Finally I sold it, but I kinda miss it.

It's entirely possible it's just that Starfire or that particular Starfire model. I dont have one. Or I wonder if it's miswired inside?
Here is the GB with a Lace Sensor in it.

I think you are right about the electronics. A bad solder point or a bad potentiometer can do bad things.

 

[GAD]

Any time a guitar isn't bright enough - even after swapping pickups - check and/or change the pots. People never suspect the pots but a guitar is a fairly complex circuit and changing the pots changes the resonant peak of the entire circuit.

I had an expensive Les Paul that sounded terrible no matter what I did. Pulled the pots and the 500k spec pots were all below 450k. Put in 550k pots and now it's a monster.

 

[LesB3]

+1 on the MV. Both of my SF VI's are very dark sounding.

 

[Default]

Not sure what tone control value is on the NS guitars. It could be that it is lower than the tone control on the bridge. The sixties vintage guitars had a 500K bridge and a 200K neck potentiometer. That would give you the same effect as as having a tone control rolled halfway down.

 

[Masamune7772]

Never met a twangy semi-hollow. most seem to be geared toward smooth/thick tone. except maybe a ric. I would change the pickup

 

[AndiJ]

I can't say my 2015 lacks twang. Could it be mostly amp related?

 

[AndiJ]

+1 on the MV. Both of my SF VI's are very dark sounding.

Oh yes? Are they NS or USA?

 

[LesB3]

Oh yes? Are they NS or USA?

NS. One is the blonde model with humbuckers, the other is the green one with DeArmonds. Both are noticeable darker than other NS Guild I have with similar pickups.

 

[AndiJ]

NS. One is the blonde model with humbuckers, the other is the green one with DeArmonds. Both are noticeable darker than other NS Guild I have with similar pickups.

Ok. My 2015 is not dark. But it doesn't have a MV as it's a IV. Are the older V and VI also dark? Either Fender era or vintage.

 

[captainvideo]

I spent a good chunk of the weekend playing my V and I might roll back my comment on the tone being at 7 compared to other guitars. Its not THAT drastic but it's still certainly darker than all those other guitars mentioned. I also raised the bridge pickup up a bit more and that MAY have helped some.

However,
Interesting how the master volume seems to make the difference here. At least in the way the discussion is going.
I guess one option would be to wire my V like a IV and see if that makes a difference.

 

[GAD]

Guitar circuits have a resonant peak which is formed in any LCR circuit. LCR means Inductance (Pickup), Capacitance, and Resistance. On a guitar with a 500k MV pot no matter what setting you're on you add ~500k resistance in the circuit. Higher resistance brightens the tone which is why 500k is used on humbuckers which are natively darker sounding than single coils. You would think that a MV equipped guitar *should* be brighter than one without, but the tone pots are varying the tone cap circuit to ground while the MV is just impeding the output jack by bleeding the entire signal go ground as opposed to just some frequencies.

The thing is, guitars are AC circuits and AC circuits are very different than DC circuits so it's more complicated than most people seem to think.

Any time I see someone complain about a guitar sounding too dark I recommend checking the pots. Most posts on guitars are +/- 20% which means those 500k pots could be 400k. Assuming the pickups aren't changing then there is also a balancing act between the pots and the caps and caps are much easier to change since the only accurate way to check the pot values is to remove them from the circuit.

 

[captainvideo]

Guitar circuits have a resonant peak which is formed in any LCR circuit. LCR means Inductance (Pickup), Capacitance, and Resistance. On a guitar with a 500k MV pot no matter what setting you're on you add ~500k resistance in the circuit. Higher resistance brightens the tone which is why 500k is used on humbuckers which are natively darker sounding than single coils. You would think that a MV equipped guitar *should* be brighter than one without, but the tone pots are varying the tone cap circuit to ground while the MV is just impeding the output jack by bleeding the entire signal go ground as opposed to just some frequencies.

The thing is, guitars are AC circuits and AC circuits are very different than DC circuits so it's more complicated than most people seem to think.

Any time I see someone complain about a guitar sounding too dark I recommend checking the pots. Most posts on guitars are +/- 20% which means those 500k pots could be 400k. Assuming the pickups aren't changing then there is also a balancing act between the pots and the caps and caps are much easier to change since the only accurate way to check the pot values is to remove them from the circuit.

I have trouble following all that but I think I get the gist of it. I've done some research on 70s Telecasters and learned they had 1mg pots and at those were known for brightening the tone of those Telecasters. Your post has me thinking about that and possibly this would be an avenue I would need to explore further.

 

[AndiJ]

I spent a good chunk of the weekend playing my V and I might roll back my comment on the tone being at 7 compared to other guitars. Its not THAT drastic but it's still certainly darker than all those other guitars mentioned. I also raised the bridge pickup up a bit more and that MAY have helped some.

However,
Interesting how the master volume seems to make the difference here. At least in the way the discussion is going.
I guess one option would be to wire my V like a IV and see if that makes a difference.

You could also try a treble bleed. Something like a V-treble is very useful as you can try different values. What GAD mentions has happened to me. Pots that were not what they say the value is. I had a guitar once, made in Korea and it was too dark. I didn't measure the pot. I just replaced the whole thing and problem solved. This happened more than one time. I think mostly with guitars made in Asia. The NS guitars are great. But the pots and electronics are probably the weak link. I would try replacing pots etc before I gave up if I really like the guitar. The MV is an extra thing though. I never had to deal with that. I have a SFV on the way. It's a USA one though. But let's see if it's darker than my NS SFIV.