1956 X-375 in the UK... Hmmm

X-170AB

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I've been looking at this X-375 from the UK listed on Reverb. It looks quite tempting! I checked with the seller and its long scale (25-1/2"), which I prefer. Looking at the photos I don't see any obvious binding or other issues. He says the pickups and electronics are working OK.



https://reverb.com/item/26699779-guild-x375-1956-blonde

What should I be looking out for? This is your chance to talk me out of seriously considering this New York Guild archtop.
 

adorshki

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I've been looking at this X-375 from the UK listed on Reverb. It looks quite tempting! I checked with the seller and its long scale (25-1/2"), which I prefer. Looking at the photos I don't see any obvious binding or other issues. He says the pickups and electronics are working OK.



https://reverb.com/item/26699779-guild-x375-1956-blonde

What should I be looking out for? This is your chance to talk me out of seriously considering this New York Guild archtop.
If there's any Brazilian Rosewood on it (like the bridge?) there's no way to legally ship it from UK to US, not even as a "buy-it-there-and-bring-it-back-personally" deal.
Sure folks have done it but the instrument's at risk of seizure if a Customs Officer gets suspicious.
All other rosewoods would qualify for a CITES cert for international sales/shipments these days, though.
Did that help?
:friendly_wink:
 
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AcornHouse

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It most likely has a Braz. RW bridge AND fingerboard, so, as Al said, no importy! Otherwise, the main thing to look out for is the binding, which, if its all good, its ahead of the game.
 

adorshki

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I'm not in the US (luckily)
Still, ya gotta be in the UK, shipment of Brazilian between CITES member countries is universally prohibited.
Due to the wording "from the UK" in your original post I assumed you were here in the US..
If you're in the UK, I can't in good conscience discourage your purchase.
:glee:
It most likely has a Braz. RW bridge AND fingerboard, so, as Al said, no importy!
Yeah fretboard looked kinda dark compared to bridge but couldn't blow it up to confirm it was rosewood too, and there is the possibility the bridge is a replacement, but looked for sure like rosewood.
 
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Rich Cohen

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On point, Chris, concerning checking the binding. Also, I'm not sure about the tailpiece. I owned one of these (1957), liked it a lot, and it had a harp tailpiece. IMO, the price is a little high, at least for the US market.
 

parker_knoll

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You do not need CITES documents to move objects within the EU, so if you're outside the UK you have until 31 Jan unless there's another extension
 

kakerlak

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It looks like a nice one, but would be significantly overpriced for the American market. I can't say what premium you'd ordinarily expect to pay in the UK, so it may be a decent deal over there. Here, though, I'd expect more of a $2.7k-3.2k range for these in sort of decent original condition, like the one you're eyeing.
 

SFIV1967

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adorshki

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Also, I'm not sure about the tailpiece. I owned one of these (1957), liked it a lot, and it had a harp tailpiece. IMO, the price is a little high, at least for the US market.
It looks like a nice one, but would be significantly overpriced for the American market. I can't say what premium you'd ordinarily expect to pay in the UK, so it may be a decent deal over there. Here, though, I'd expect more of a $2.7k-3.2k range for these in sort of decent original condition, like the one you're eyeing.
There does seem to be a consistent premium for these vintage Guilds over there, I assume based on scarcity.
Also, I'm not sure about the tailpiece. I owned one of these (1957), liked it a lot, and it had a harp tailpiece. IMO, the price is a little high, at least for the US market.
And I know very early Guilds had "trapeze" tailpieces but don't remember how late they were used, but you can see some in The Guild Guitar Book.
 

AcornHouse

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There does seem to be a consistent premium for these vintage Guilds over there, I assume based on scarcity.


And I know very early Guilds had "trapeze" tailpieces but don't remember how late they were used, but you can see some in The Guild Guitar Book.
My ‘56 A-50 has a trapeze tailpiece. However, in The Bible Hans mentions that higher end guitars had a Kluson tailpiece, not a trapeze, like this
 

swiveltung

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I thought the Cites thing went away recently for used items at least....?
 

SFIV1967

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I thought the Cites thing went away recently for used items at least....?
Only for East Indian Rosewood and a few others. But not for Brazilian Rosewood!

Don't ask me how guys like a Joe Bonamassa can buy vintage instruments (which all contain Braz) in Europe and Australia (which he did) and bring them back in the US.

A good article about the hazzles is here: https://www.mk-guitar.com/2014/01/31/guitars-with-brazilian-rosewood-exporting-from-the-us-into-the-eu-what-is-possible-and-what-not/

Ralf
 
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adorshki

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Only for East Indian Rosewood and a few others. But not for Brazilian Rosewood!

Don't ask me how guys like a Joe Bonamassa can buy vintage instruments (which all contain Braz) in Europe and Australia (which he did) and bring them back in the US.
I was reading that old F&WS letter again this morning and wondering about the musical instrument exemption for traveling musicians.
(Wish I could copy'n'paste from a PDF!)
https://www.fws.gov/international/pdf/questions-and-answers-appendix-II-timber-listings-December-2016.pdf
Anyway, in question 47 on pg. 23 they take pains to describe what "Pre-convention" means, and that anything made from wood harvested prior to the CITES listing date qualifies as pre-convention and is exempt
from document requirements, but don't specifically address the unique case of Brazilian.
The answer to question #52 finally seems to nail it down:
"You do not need a US CITES import permit from our office documentation for unless the instrument contains species listed in Appendix I AND is not preconvention. The United States does not require the issuance of import permits for CITES pre-Convention specimens nor Appendix II specimens."
So if one could prove the Brazilian is pre-Convention then one could bring it into the US freely.
Touring with it could be problematic though, since the issuance of an instrument certificate is predicated on the piece meeting CITES requirements and the US rules out Appendix I specimens from being allowed to qualify for export documentation even under personal carry exemption.
Maybe Joe can afford to task "one of his people" with dealing with F&WS and Customs to find or enable the right "discretionary loophole"?
Although the subject of this question was international shipment for repair, I do see a note at bottom of page 20 that F&WS will consider inquiries on a case-by-case basis and that tells me there may be a loophole available there, especially if the Braz itself is pre-Convention:
Greta article, addresses that "pre-Convention" question specifically, for items going IN to the EU, at least.
And we know the US also doesn't require incoming documentation for pre-convention specimens.
"If you don’t buy the guitar to resell it (or to make money from it in any other way, e.g. to sell photos of it), it is for private purpose."
Seems to confirm what the F&WS service outlined, and suspect Joe's been able to demonstrate his intent to keep the instruments.
Still, obtaining the certification's gotta be problematic, and as you've discovered, if one comes here to buy the guitar, as far as I know right now it'd be problematic to get the export documentation, due to the clause in that letter that says Appendix I species aren't eligible for export certificates or personal property exemption.
Perhaps pre-convention specimens would qualify under the same rationale that allows a US seller to get the export document stamped in the right box to allow the international sale?
 

Rich Cohen

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What's the date of the convention?
Hey Chris, isn't that an X-350?
 

Walter Broes

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Nice looking guitar, but I'd bid lower than the asking price - it's high to begin with, and the guitar seems to be missing the pickguard and the original tailpiece.

I think Ralf is right about the Brazilian Rosewood, but I haven't heard of a single inside-the-EU occurence of a guitar being held in customs because of a BR fingerboard, and I travel inside the EU with my old Guild (and Danelectro - which, funny enough has a brazilian board as well) without any trouble.
 

adorshki

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What's the date of the convention?
They're periodic, but the one that put all the remaining unlisted rosewoods into Category II was in Nov. '16 and went into effect in Jan of '17.
The one that loosened the restrictions on individual sales of Appendix II rosewoods (basically everything except Braz) was last August in Geneva with effective date of November 26th this year.
https://www.cites.org/eng/CITES_CoP18_moves_towards_strengthened_regulations_for_tropical_trees_as_well_as_cautions_exemptions_for_rosewood_musical _nstruments_29082019
And again, that was just to ease up the commercial transactions, but the personal carry exemption for up to 20lbs has always been in effect.
Admittedly, on my part at least, there's always been some uncertainty as to precisely where and "when" Braz might qualify for the personal carry exemption.
Walter seems to have been enjoying the benefit of that always-intended lenience towards owners of individual instruments who have no intentions of selling.


Oh, just realized, maybe the question was "What's the date for Brazilian (or a given species of wood?)", it's the date it was first listed on a CITES Appendix.
Brazilian was first listed in '92 so anything harvested before that date is pre-convention.
Proving when it was harvested might be the real problem if the documentation for a given instrument is poor.
But obviously if one can demonstrate a guitar was built in '90 then the wood must have been harvested prior to '92, right?
:friendly_wink:
 
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