12 strings, 6 pins?

[tommym]

Taylor's new 12-strings use a 6-pin system. My understanding is that this was done to accommodate the narrowness of their new V-Class Bracing at the bridge plate. In any case, I stumbled across this bridge pin set-up from a 1915 Holzapfel. 1915! Understandably, there are a lot of differences in engineering between the two, but I thought that some would find this of some historical interest.

Tommy

 

[12 string]

Pete Seeger's Stan Francis 12er used 6 pins.

 

[chazmo]

Tommy, last I looked it was because of Taylor's new electronics system.

That is interesting about the Holzapfel!

 

[tommym]

Tommy, last I looked it was because of Taylor's new electronics system.

That is interesting about the Holzapfel!

Yeah, I've been waiting to see an interior photo of the bridge plate area to truly see what is going on down there on these new Taylor 12-strings.

Tommy

 

[tommym]

I contacted Taylor to see if they can provide clarification on this issue. They can, but it doesn't mean that they will. I'll let you all know if and when Taylor responds.

Tommy

 

[plaidseason]

Sonically speaking, I'm not a Taylor guy, but I've long been impressed with their process, in both innovative new ideas, and with recognizing and reimagining old ones.

 

[tommym]

Sonically speaking, I'm not a Taylor guy, but I've long been impressed with their process, in both innovative new ideas, and with recognizing and reimagining old ones.

I sold my Guild F212XL 12-String (Sitka/Mahogany) back in the mid-1990s to purchase a Taylor 555 12-String (Sitka/Mahogany). I never regretted that decision. I went on to purchase a second matching Taylor 555 12-String (Sitka/Mahogany) for alternate tunings. My friend purchased the first one and still uses it as his go-to 12-String, and I still have the second one as my go-to 12-String. I never felt the Taylor was sonically superior nor inferior to the Guild.

Tommy

 

[plaidseason]

I sold my Guild F212XL 12-String (Sitka/Mahogany) back in the mid-1990s to purchase a Taylor 555 12-String (Sitka/Mahogany). I never regretted that decision. I went on to purchase a second matching Taylor 555 12-String (Sitka/Mahogany) for alternate tunings. My friend purchased the first one and still uses it as his go-to 12-String, and I still have the second one as my go-to 12-String. I never felt the Taylor was sonically superior nor inferior to the Guild.

Tommy

Note that I wasn't making a dig about the sound of Taylors, just speaking to what draws me in.

 

[wileypickett]

I sold my Guild F212XL 12-String (Sitka/Mahogany) back in the mid-1990s to purchase a Taylor 555 12-String (Sitka/Mahogany). I never regretted that decision. I went on to purchase a second matching Taylor 555 12-String (Sitka/Mahogany) for alternate tunings. My friend purchased the first one and still uses it as his go-to 12-String, and I still have the second one as my go-to 12-String. I never felt the Taylor was sonically superior nor inferior to the Guild.

Tommy

Different strokes.

I was a Taylor 12-string guy (I had three or four) till I discovered my first Guild 12-string, a JF30-12, more than 15 years ago now. Within a year or two of that purchase, I'd sold all the Taylors -- except for my Leo Kottke Signature Model.

Taylor's 12-string necks / figerboards ARE very comfortable. I notice when trying out various brands of 12-strings at music stores that most makers have modified their neck / fingerboard designs to compete with Taylors.

But for me, the Guild 12-string sound (mainly speaking about the Westerly era) beats the sound of Taylors.

 

[tommym]

From an aesthetic point of view, I have to admit that nothing (now or since) could touch the aesthetics of my old Westerly JF-65 flamed maple (back, sides, and neck) 12-string. Westerly did it best! I still get weak in the knees thinking about that one. I always wonder if that guitar is still around.



Tommy

 

[tommym]

I stumbled across some other 12-String pin solutions that I thought would be of some interest. In the first image, I would have no doubt aligned all of the ball ends in one direction. OCD.

Tommy

 

[wileypickett]

Except for the bottom one, I imagine these are attempts to solve the problem of too-far-apart string separation. They allow each pair of strings to be grouped closer together than bridge pins typically allow.

I know of 12-string players who sand the sides of the tops of their bridge pins flat so the string behind it doesn't have to go around the ball on top of the forward bridge pin and can thereby be positioned closer to its mate.

In their attempt to solve the separation problem Alvarez made 12-string bridges where each pair of strings was held in place by one bridge pin. It solved one problem but created another: to replace a broken string (most frequently the octave G) you had to deal with a pair of strings instead of just the one that broke.

 

[tommym]

I contacted Taylor to see if they can provide clarification on this issue. They can, but it doesn't mean that they will. I'll let you all know if and when Taylor responds.

Tommy

Welp, Taylor tech support did respond. They basically sidestepped my specific questions and just provide the benefits of the new pin/saddle configuration. They also admitted that they did not have any available PR photos of the underside of the soundboard showing the pin/pickup configuration, nor video instructions on how to properly change out the strings on this new configuration. I guess that will all come out eventually via the various guitar forums and youtube.

Tommy

 

[Triggs]

Tommy, that second one looks just like my Furch 12 string

 

[merlin6666]

I got hooked on 12 string when I played an old Ovation in a store. Ovations don't use pins which for me is preferable.

 

[merlin6666]

Taylor's new 12-strings use a 6-pin system. My understanding is that this was done to accommodate the narrowness of their new V-Class Bracing at the bridge plate. In any case, I stumbled across this bridge pin set-up from a 1915 Holzapfel. 1915! Understandably, there are a lot of differences in engineering between the two, but I thought that some would find this of some historical interest.

Tommy

Wow I think they just started with steel string and 12 string guitars in the early 1900s and I am not sure if truss rods and x bracing were widely available then. It is surprising that such a guitar has survived and can still be strung.

 

[wileypickett]

Alvarez Yairi DY-80, 12 String (w/ HSC) | Reverb

Alvarez Yairi DY-80 12 String In Excellent Condition and has been Played Very Little. Late 80's or Early 90's. Made in Japan by Yairi and Imported under the Alvarez Name. Features: Solid Spruce Top Rosewood Back & Sides Hardshell Case Included ...Please message us with any questions or for ad...

reverb.com

 

[tommym]

Alvarez Yairi DY-80, 12 String (w/ HSC) | Reverb

Alvarez Yairi DY-80 12 String In Excellent Condition and has been Played Very Little. Late 80's or Early 90's. Made in Japan by Yairi and Imported under the Alvarez Name. Features: Solid Spruce Top Rosewood Back & Sides Hardshell Case Included ...Please message us with any questions or for ad...

reverb.com

I guess that bridge design works if the guitar has survived all these years, but aesthetically.....YIKES!

Tommy

 

[wileypickett]

That bridge design is also an attempt to solve a problen -- the tendencey of string pull to cause bridge lift. By separating the bridge pin area from the bridge itself, you still get the downward pressure on the bridge that charges the top, but the strings don't pull the bridge forward or up. (The strings are ramped more steeply than on conventional bridges, so there's actually more downward pressure on the saddle).

Not sure what kind of hardwood they use for the bridge pin area or how they attach it, but I've never seen one that's come uncoupled from the top or been damaged from use, etc. It seems to work.

I got interested in Alvarezes after finding a cedar-topped model at a yard sale somewhere in Missouri while I was on tour some years ago, one of the best sounding guitars I've come across.

A couple years ago I bought an Alvarez Yairi DYM75 cedar-topped guitar, which has this bridge design. Also a great sounding guitar.

 

[SFIV1967]

I didn't find an inside view either but on Reddit a guy has one where the bridge is already cracked and it shows at least some "inside views":



In Wood & Steel Taylor wrote about the design:



Ralf