12 string tuning question

[Ragpicker]

Will I damage my new F512 by leaving it tuned to concert pitch?
I've had several people tell me that I should tune it down one full step, then use a capo. I just find it hard to play with a capo.
Several of the repair guys tell me its not "If", but "When" the bridge will pull up due to the stress of all the strings.
Is this true with guilds dual truss rods even?

 

[Mr. P ~]

The bridge health has nothing to do with the truss rods. If you tune down and use a capo, you will most likely never have and issue with the bridge. I would never use a capo all the time.

The capo method does make it easier to press the strings down because of the lower string tension.

 

[Dr Izza Plumber]

From all I've heard and experienced with 12 stringers, (and I've had them since 1973) it's always best to keep them tuned below "E", and they will last longer and have fewer problems.

Do I follow this advice? Nope! I love the better resonance/tone and since I use the entire neck right up to the 12th fret, it would basically be a PITA to muah!

I do tune lower (ocassionally) for others, for instance if someone owns an aging axe, and We want to forego any stressing of the classic instrument.

 

[john_kidder]

Always followed the manufacturer's instructions, always kept my 12s tuned to pitch (since 1968). Only one that ever had a problem was a very early Japanese Aria that developed action of about an inch at the 12th fret. I've always thought the factory must have just forgotten to attach the neck.

 

[guildzilla]

The "when, not if" issue applies to all guitars, but the amount of tension obviously impacts the variable "how long."

The previous owner of my JF-30-12 told me he kept it at concert pitch, even though it had a slight seam separation in the top.

I initially tuned down two steps to D so I could see how the minor repair made to the seam held up over time. Having done that, I found rather quickly that tuning at D gave me a different voice, compared to my 6-string acoustics, and brought songs into my vocal range that had been a tough reach in E. A big benefit to me.

I'm not wild about using a capo, either, but it isn't the end of the world.

Furthermore, you can always tune at concert pitch when you perform, but keep it downtuned to D when you practice and when the guitar is not being used. Some kind of compromise along those lines.

If I had your new F-512, Rag, that's what I would do. I do believe that playing the guitar at the higher tension of concert pitch will help wake up and break in your new top while you are in the getting-to-know-you stage of ownership. But better safe than sorry about resting it at a lower pitch.

 

[West R Lee]

I asked Hans his opinion on this issue sometime back, and he assured me that there's no problem tuning to pitch with a Guild 12, I keep mine there. I do use light gauge strings though, both because they are easier on my fingers and to reduce tension.

West

 

[Guildmark]

I was advised to tune down a full step (down to D) by respected players and repairmen long before I met the venerable Mr. Moust. I certainly respect Hans' judgement that the guitar can handle it, of course. But I also know for a fact that tuning down for the last 27 years hasn't hurt anything on my 12. I capo the second fret to be in standard tuning most of the time. This has a couple of effects besides easing the stess on the guitar:
1. The result is like playing a 12 fret guitar with a shorter scale. This might not be a big deal for anyone with long arms, but could make life simpler for those who don't. If, like me, you don't play above the 12th fret much, you can be just that much closer to the "action".
2. I can easily remove the capo to play and sing some songs that otherwise might be beyond my vocal range - without re-tuning, which seems to annoy some ornery, peasant, phillistine patrons (go figure).

Those might not be great benefits, and might not work for anyone else, but I'm not likely to alter my habit.

 

[california]

My repair guy said absolutely tune it to concert pitch. When I joked about his suggesting concert tuning so he'd have more work in the future he said no, Guild 12s are built to hold concert pitch without causing damage. Besides, that way you don't have to re-tune the darn thing every time you go to play with someone else.

 

[Ragpicker]

This may sound stupid, but what is the correct way to tune in down a full step to D? Do I put the capo on, then use the tuner? Or Tune it down using the tuner, then add the capo and make adjustments?

 

[Guildmark]

I put the capo on, then tune. It reduces the risk that the capo itself will pull the guitar out of tune. A good capo won't, but if it does, you've wasted a little time. On stage, that's ungood.

Just a quick word to David: When have you NOT had to re-tune when you go to play with someone else :?:

 

[Ragpicker]

Guildmark, If I put the capo on first, then tune it, won't the pressure of the capo against the fret cause faster fret wear or damage to the fret due to the string pulling between the capo and the fret? By tuning without a capo, I thought the only wear would be on the nut. Also, I'm not sure that the smaller strings on a twelve will tune as well because of the height difference. Just wondering.

 

[Guildmark]

You may cease wondering.
Your concerns, with all respect, are unfounded.

You are tuning a string, not a band saw. The distance and direction the string usually travels across the fret, and the movement it makes during tuning, do not cause excessive abrasion. Playing actually causes more abrasion on the frets, eventually necessitating a fret job - reshaping or replacing them. Also, the frequency with which you will have to tune a good guitar will not cause excessive abrasion- either on the frets or the nut. Under your theory, you might have to replace the nut annually. This does not occur.

Re: height difference of the strings off of the fretboard - Your capo has the same affect as your fingers when you press on the fretboard - The strings are stopped at the fret - not the capo. And it is important to consider that there is no negative effect caused by different string diameters in use - that's actually what makes the guitar work. Also, you will not be tuning to an absolute. You are tuning the strings relative to each other. It's called "tempered tuning". There is a thread here at LTG about that which can explain it better than I can.

Hope this helps you, Rag. Good luck!

 

[Graham]

You may cease wondering.
Your concerns, with all respect, are unfounded.

Hope this helps you, Rag. Good luck!

 

[Guildmark]

I rest my case.

 

[West R Lee]

Oh yes, the pictoral helps a bunch. Now I can see Marks arguement!

West

 

[Karl Teten]

I perform and record at concert pitch.

I tune down to D and use a capo around the house.

 

[Ragpicker]

thanks folks, I'll put my worries to rest and just play it alot when it arrives!

 

[6L6]

Since I practically never play my F-412 with others, retuning is not an issue. I've always followed Roger McGuinn's suggestion of tuning down 1/2 step (which actually is better for my vocal range). I prefer Light gauge strings.

That said, I'm sure there's no problem tuning to concert pitch and leaving it there.

6

'07 F-412

 

[Mikeoso]

I run Martin Extra Lights (.011) on my F212XL, tuned to pitch. If I use Lights (.012) I drop it s step to make playing more comfy. Personally, I've never been able to get full sound out of a 12 string with a capo on...it's just cleaner running naturally,. to my ears

 

[Guildmark]

I just found this and thought it was interesting amd relevant to our topic.
The origins of Twelve String Power
by Michael Simmons

This article first appeared in Acoustic Guitar Magazine, November 1997.

Excerpts:

Guild, a small company struggling to find a niche, found that it’s slightly heavier models like the F-212 could be tuned up to standard pitch, and these instruments began turning up in the hands of musicians like Paul Simon and John Denver.

...in 1990 the Leo Kottke Signature Model was introduced. Bucking the trend for a 12-string that could be tuned to E, the Kottke model was designed to be tuned down to C#, in effect making it a modern version of the old Stellas.

Moral: Tune it the way it works for you. (Pretty profound, huh? :roll: )