112 vs 212 loudness

[Smeigel_12000]

Hi all,

This post has nothing to do with Guild directly so sorry if this is not allowed here, but I have question about the power of a 112 vs 212 cab.

Currently I’m using a Swart Atomic jr head with matching 112 cab loaded with a celestion gold. Great little amp but, we started playing slightly louder styles of music with the band and the 5w Swart can barely hold ground. Because I really love the sound of this amp, I was wondering if a custom made 212 cab with gold’s would give me some more loudness, or do I have to get another amp?

What would be your choice?

Cheers,
Michiel

 

[fronobulax]

I look forward to informed opinions. My uninformed opinion is that perceived volume is based upon the power of the amp and the efficiency of the speakers. So you need a bigger amp or a more efficient speaker. It is possible that if the amp is "underperforming" while driving one speaker a second speaker might make things louder. The usual way of handling an amp that sounds real good but is not loud enough is to mic it through something else or take the signal from the amp and feed it to another amp.

 

[HeyMikey]

LOL. Not what I expected this thread to be about. I was thinking F112 vs F212 comparison.

 

[Brad Little]

LOL. Not what I expected this thread to be about. I was thinking F112 vs F212 comparison.

Me, too!

 

[Smeigel_12000]

LOL. Not what I expected this thread to be about. I was thinking F112 vs F212 comparison.

Haha sorry

 

[Smeigel_12000]

I look forward to informed opinions. My uninformed opinion is that perceived volume is based upon the power of the amp and the efficiency of the speakers. So you need a bigger amp or a more efficient speaker. It is possible that if the amp is "underperforming" while driving one speaker a second speaker might make things louder. The usual way of handling an amp that sounds real good but is not loud enough is to mic it through something else or take the signal from the amp and feed it to another amp.

The gold is already one of the most sensitive speakers on the market as far as I know. Running the head into another (power) amp could be interesting. I do wonder what happens with the resistance values and if it alters the sound.

There are power amps I can fit in my cab though

 

[fronobulax]

Suppose we have an amp, separately connect two speakers and measure the sound pressure levels under identical conditions. The more efficient speaker will have higher SPL. So, and perhaps, naively on my part, you might find a more efficient speaker and get more volume. "sensitive" doesn't quite mean the same as "efficient" to me so we get a definition.

Using a pre-amp or direct out should not effect the performance of the current amp.

Plugging in a second speaker will change the impedance. This article agrees with my experience that adding a speaker does not typically produce a detectable change in volume.

 

[Smeigel_12000]

Suppose we have an amp, separately connect two speakers and measure the sound pressure levels under identical conditions. The more efficient speaker will have higher SPL. So, and perhaps, naively on my part, you might find a more efficient speaker and get more volume. "sensitive" doesn't quite mean the same as "efficient" to me so we get a definition.

Using a pre-amp or direct out should not effect the performance of the current amp.

Plugging in a second speaker will change the impedance. This article agrees with my experience that adding a speaker does not typically produce a detectable change in volume.

Speaker sensitivity is measured in spl. We’re talking about the same thing here.

Just wondering if a 212 would sound “fuller” and more in your face.

 

[GAD]

If you want to increase volume without altering the characteristic of the sound you should to mic it to the FOH system.

 

[Nuuska]

hello

I assume you are plugging your present 1x12 8 ohm speaker into the external speaker output. That output can handle 4 ohm loads. You may want to check that. If so - then 2x12 parallel connected is 4 ohms. You do get just a bit more output because of increased efficiency of 2x12 vs 1x12 - however - its is very marginal - under ideal conditions up to 3dB.

 

[Rocky]

Hi all,

This post has nothing to do with Guild directly so sorry if this is not allowed here, but I have question about the power of a 112 vs 212 cab.

Currently I’m using a Swart Atomic jr head with matching 112 cab loaded with a celestion gold. Great little amp but, we started playing slightly louder styles of music with the band and the 5w Swart can barely hold ground. Because I really love the sound of this amp, I was wondering if a custom made 212 cab with gold’s would give me some more loudness, or do I have to get another amp?

What would be your choice?

Cheers,
Michiel

To directly answer the question, assuming proper impedance match, in theory it should give you 3dB more sound pressure level. In practice, it will give you slightly less. What it will do is move more air, which will be useful in a live context.

 

[Smeigel_12000]

Thanks guys,

I guess it stays a gamble if it's the right way to go. Maybe I should just look out for a new amp to be certain of enough volume. Any recommendations that would give me the quality and tone of the Swart but with more power? I know there's the Swart AST MKii but that head is pricy. A combo is an option too for me.

 

[Rocky]

I believe the Atomic jr. is a single ended amplifier. Most amps with more power are push-pull, so they will sound somewhat different, including the AST.

Are you running a 6V6 tube? You might (or might not) get a bit more power out of the amp if you run a 6L6GC (Swart website says this is OK)

The easiest answer is to buy a second Atomic jr., and run both of them when circumstances require it. The other easy answer is to get a re-amping device, like a Bad Cat Unleash, or similar. Neither are the answer I'm guessing you want - a single piece of equipment that delivers a close sound, but louder.

 

[Smeigel_12000]

Hi Rocky, I'm already running a TungSol 7581a to get the most headroom out of it. It did work fine for the last 2 years, but not enough for my new needs. That Bad Cat suggestion is actually a great one. I will look into that. Thanks!

 

[nielDa]

Maybe not a direct answer to your question but here's some basic information about power and loudness that could be of interest. https://www.premierguitar.com/gear/amps/how-do-tube-amps-work

 

[mavuser]

2X12 will sound louder than 1x12 and Swart amps are a more than fantastic choice, but there comes a point when a 5-watt tube amp just is not the tool for the job. You could buy the higher wattage pricey Swart or possibly add a second 5-watter as has been suggested...id maybe get temp gig working extra hours on the side during holiday season and go all in on that AST MKII, if u know for sure that is exactly what u want and need. u could also consider a less expensive higher powered amp like a Fender Silverface in nice shape. good luck!

 

[Guildedagain]

 

[Midnight Toker]

Just a few questions. 1. Is it just your stage volume (for you!) you are having trouble with competing w/ the rest of the band? 2. Does your band normally play through a PA? 3. Do you use stage monitors?

There are several ways to still use your current setup that can help w/ being able to hear yourself. If you do run through a PA w/ monitors. Simply mic your amp and ask for more of it in the monitor. If PA w/o a monitor, you can get a slanted amp stand that projects your 1x12 directly at you. (Or place it on something that raises it to your chest level) Of course this applies only if your amp is mic'ed as it would be more for you and actually take away from the audience.

A 2x12 would certainly give you a fuller/beefier sound spread, for you, but if you are mic'ed through a PA, that won't really matter to the audience if only one speaker is getting a mic anyway. More speakers is mainly just for stage volume. For you! The days of stacks upon stacks of guitar amps/cabinets was built on necessity due to inadequate monitors.(then it morphed into just looking cool and many 80's rock/metal bands had "dummy cabinets" on stage just for looks) Today's most basic PA's mean artists that record w/ a Princeton, can also play live w/ a Princeton, and don't really need a wall of amps. Let the monitors be your friend! I've watched Carlos Santana during sound check walk across the front line of stage monitors looking for feedback sweet spots. He'd stop and put X's w/ dayglow tape on the stage so he'd know exactly where to stand during solos that needed long sustaining notes.

 

[Smeigel_12000]

Thank you all for the comments and advises. I found a great deal on a Swart ST-45 with matching 2x12 cab with alnico ruby’s in it this weekend so I couldn’t resist.

It seems to fit the bill perfectly, though I haven’t tried it in a band setting yet.

 

[Smeigel_12000]

Ps. I don’t know if this is allowed here, but I decided to open a dedicated Swart amp owners group on Facebook to exchange experiences, interests and tips about Swart amps. Feel free to join if you’re interested . https://www.facebook.com/groups/3194674120745276/?ref=share

Please delete this message if this is not allowed.