What Sort of Discounts on New Guilds?

[devellis]

I hope this topic doesn't violate forum rules or etiquette. I looked and didn't find anything indicating that it did but on some forums, this isn't an issue people discuss.

I've noticed that virtually every ad I see seems to have identical prices for Guilds, presumably minimum advertised price (MAP) as a markdown from MSRP. But with most guitars (e.g., Martin, Taylor) MAP is a starting point rather than a bottom line. Am I correct in assuming that this is the case with Guilds? With e Martin and Taylor, 40% off of MSRP is not uncommon, even though MAP is only 25% off of MSRP. As I consider potential purchase options over the next few months, what guitars actually are likely to cost is an obvious consideration. If people have information about this they'd be willing to share, I'd really appreciate it. A search didn't yield anything as specific as what I've found for other guitars (e.g., Martin).

On a related theme, are there particular dealers that people have had particularly good success with and would recommend? With most brands of guitar, there seem to be dealers who rise to the top as people who are committed to that brand and work well with buyers. Are there any Guild dealers that people consider to fit that description? While I'm certainly concerned about cost, I'm happy to send my business to a great dealer who provides excellent service but charges slightly more, rather than going for a rock-bottom price from a dealer that's essentially a mail drop. Elderly is an outfit that I've had good dealings with on numerous occasions (mostly around vintage instruments) and they're Guild dealers but I wanted to get the collective wisdom of this group as I evaluate my options.

Thanks

 

[bluesypicky]

Bob,

From what I observed, MSRP to MAP ratios are pretty close from one dealer to another, with the largest markdowns usually on internet prices.
The price you will pay for a guitar at a dealer has a lot to do with the particular dealer's situation at the time. Factors like stock status, length of time the guitar has been hanging in the store, will dictate the final offer you will be extended.
If, like fellow friend Bill Ashton, you happen to show up at the right dealer at the right time, (wanting to turn his stock around, decreasing his inventory, or simply in need of cash flow) you will probably get as good a deal as Bill got on his D55, and he got a great one! :wink:
Good hunting and good luck!

 

[Dr. Spivey]

Check with LTG member Bing. He's a Guild dealer: http://www.guitarsofmontana.com/

 

[ac1dt3st]

in part, this depends on how important it is for you to play the actual instrument before the purchase. those of us on this board who have purchased a guitar via eBay or Craigslist or GBase or whatever know what it means to buy something "sight unseen" and trust in what you're getting.

this is likely somewhat less common when it comes to new instruments, since as you point out, the local price you can find might be commensurate with prices pretty much everywhere else. however, in my recent case, i went to several local music stores and played a pile of new Guilds. i piled them gently, but piled nevertheless.

when i finally decided on a brand new New Hartford Guild F-50R natural, which they were selling for north of $2,500. i went home and Googled the crap out of that guitar for about a week. i won't go into why, but sometimes you have to page DEEP into your search results, past page 20 or even 30 or more. you'll see a lot of duplicate listings, and "clearinghouse" listings pointing you to other sites you've already been to, just to get your pass-through traffic for ad revenue. but eventually, you might find that gems are starting to pop up out of the mud.

in my case, i found The Music Center:
http://www.themusiccenter.net/advanced_search_result.php?keywords=Guild

they have a ton of Guilds, and they were selling a brand new F-50R NT for less than anyone else i could find, and a good $600 less than my local shop. i saved hundreds on sales tax alone, and they ship for free. that's almost $1,000 staying in my pocket right there! some quick Google research on the shop itself brought up numerous positive testimonials about the owners from devoted buyers, and i was sold.

so, i bought the F-50R from them, and i couldn't be happier. the guitar is beautiful, and the tone is amazing, and other than a small misunderstanding about the shipping address, my experience was great.

so, i can recommend The Music Center, but would also say, figure out which guitar you want, by playing them or asking questions around here (we LOVE to talk Guild varieties!) and then really do your research. also decide if you want to support a local shop you like, and "keep the money local" in your community, or if you're o.k. buying online.

finally, i would note that if you find a price you like online, you can sometimes bring a screenshot / print-out of the information to a local shop. most shops can custom order for you, and they might be willing to meet the price, or at least cut you a deal, and voilà... win/win.

hope that helps...
.rich

 

[dapmdave]

Please someone correct me if I'm wrong...

It's my understanding that MSRP and MAP are set by the manufacturers. But the final selling price is up to the individual dealer (and of course, the buyer). Naturally, the dealer buys the guitar for the wholesale price, or maybe a bit less if there are special promotions at play.

Dave

 

[devellis]

Very helpful, guys. Thanks much. If this comes to fruition, it's an F512 I'm thinking about. I like supporting local shops if they're quality operations. Here, I think my only local Guild dealer is Sam Ash and it's a pretty long shot that they'd have a 512. And a big chain has less appeal to me than a more customer-oriented dealer who's out of state. So, barring the unexpected, I'm prepared to order at a distance. I've actually done a fair amount of business with the Music Emporium in Massachusetts over the years, but they don't carry Guilds.

Some folks on this forum have recommended seeing if there's an LTG'er in the vicinity of the chosen dealer who can take a look. If that worked out and someone was willing to check out a prospective guitar, that would certainly be a plus. The recent thread about the new Guild with the messed up binding is a bit worrisome, but I assume that was an anomaly. In any case, if someone looked over and played a guitar and gave it the thumbs up, that would be reassuring.

I'll be sure to check the dealers who have been recommended as I get ready to make a decision. Other suggestions are certainly welcomed, as well.

I'm certainly glad to learn that (as I suspected) MAP isn't the final word. At that price point, the new Martin Grand J40 was starting to look kind of attractive. My reasoning, though, is kind of a mirror image of what Martin enthusiasts often put out there. They'll ask why people but non-Martins when so many other brands (in their view) are just copying Martin. Well, my logic is, why buy the Martin 12-string when it's just copying Guild? That's sort of tongue-in-cheek (I have no gripe with Martins, and have a tenor guitar and a couple of mandolins from Nazareth) but Guild has been doing jumbo 12-strings for a very long time and I like what they turn out. Even though East Hartford is a bit less of a known quantity, I'm keepin' the faith, based on early reports of the instruments coming out of the new factory. Having grown up in the northeast, I have admired Guilds (which were very plentiful up there in the day) and the idea of having one is appealing to me, especially when considering a 12-string. A few more planets will have to align before this is a certainty, but things are looking encouraging at this point.

The guitars I've had of late are all ones I'm very happy with -- a Bourgeois Banjo Killer, Goodall grand concert, National Style-O, a Zimnicki (Michigan-based builder) OM, and a "vintage" 1979 Lemon Grove Taylor 510 (sort of the equivalent of a Hoboken Guild). (As some of you may know, the Taylors back in 1979 were actually hand built by Bob Taylor and Kurt Listug, Taylor's current CEO). I haven't had a 12-string in a very, very long time and a Guild F512 seems like the one to fix that.

As always, thanks for the input.

 

[West R Lee]

I know that Hans has always said that generally speaking, 40% off MSRP was a deal that was had regularly in the old days.

West

 

[spiderman]

512s are really nice, the epitome of rosewood 12 stringers.

As for pricing, don't know current new Guilds, my GAD I got for ~60% MSRP, and the Martin for ~62% MSRP. Over on the Martin forum the word of mouth is that dealers pay ~50% MSRP and the retail price is 60-65% MSRP. Of course for certain limited models this goes out the window, but it works as a general rule.

Some guitar manufacturers do things differently. McPherson has a set price, but dealers don't pay anything until the sale, the guitars are in effect "on consignment". When your "cheap" guitars are ~$5k each, this makes sense since few dealers could afford to put a brace of them on the wall otherwise. Consequently I have never seen prices on McPhersons vary much, because if a dealer gets sick of one that does not sell he can send it back instead of selling below his cost. He has nothing invested except the wall space (and shipping and insurance ).


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[fronobulax]

Please someone correct me if I'm wrong...

It's my understanding that MSRP and MAP are set by the manufacturers. But the final selling price is up to the individual dealer (and of course, the buyer). Naturally, the dealer buys the guitar for the wholesale price, or maybe a bit less if there are special promotions at play.

Dave

I concur, so two of us are either wrong or right Over the years the ability of a manufacturer to set and enforce a Minimum Advertised Price has been in and out of court because when everyone sells at the MAP then it looks suspiciously like price fixing. There are many ways around the MAP, although the manufacturers are smart enough to figure out what a dealer is doing and cut off supply. Think of web sites where you have to put the item in a shopping cart to get the price. I am also reminded of liquor stores in New York who were forbidden to advertise prices but filled newspapers with ads that had prices with an asterisk - "all prices less than". Everyone knew that you took the advertised price and subtracted a penny and that's what you paid. We should also note that wholesale prices vary. Not all dealers get the same price even in the absence of special promotions that are visible to the customer.

 

[plaidseason]

It always cracks me up when a big chain store like Sam Ash or Guitar Center advertises a guitar as "30% OFF LIST!" - when 30% off list isn't even on the better end of retail pricing for most brands.

-Chris

 

[dapmdave]

It always cracks me up when a big chain store like Sam Ash or Guitar Center advertises a guitar as "30% OFF LIST!" - when 30% off list isn't even on the better end of retail pricing for most brands.

-Chris

And even more so when you consider that those big box chain stores probably get an even better wholesale price due to their order volume.

Dave

 

[Brad Little]

I know that Hans has always said that generally speaking, 40% off MSRP was a deal that was had regularly in the old days.

Yes, at least around here, but that may have had something to do with our proximity to NYC. Last Guild I bought new (1987) I paid 40% off the list for the guitar and no charge for the case. When I taught in a music store (mid-70s) the owner was often willing to sell at cost plus shipping because the profit was in return sales-strings, straps, pedals- things like that with high markup. When I managed a record store shortly after that, I sold strings and capos and other guitar accessories cheaper than anyone else in town and we still made a full 50% profit.
Brad