What have I done now?

[beinhard]

Noticed this a few days ago.
I normally avoid refinished guitars, but this one somehow triggered my interest.

I'm not familiar with this model at all, but I think it looks really ... interesting.
So, what do you think? Did I just waste my money?

beinhard

 

[Maxer]

Well, congrats - I think! But I guess much depends on how much you forked over.

Cool looking guitar, even if it is a refin. The back is odd, though - that discolouration is plain weird and it has me wondering what the story is there. Sure looks nice on the front though. Nice slab of a guitar body and it looks like it'll play like greased lightning.

Wonder what the original finish was. And that back detail is disturbing. Maybe just a large finish flaw and nothing more, but it's a drag it's there at all.

 

[frettedstrings]

I am not a Electric Guitarist. I've always been interested in Acoustic Guitars, but this '66 S-50 looks great to me. I hope it plays as good as it looks. The discoloration on the back looks like a fade from playing it for 44 years. I think it adds character.

 

[Hammer]

I've seen worse refins. It looks to me like a little too much may have been taken away during sanding...the edges look very, I dunno, "soft" to me. But, all things considered, not a bad price for a pretty nice looking guit!

 

[beinhard]

Received it yesterday. It seems I have a new project ...

It isn't really a refinish, more like a partial de-finish. Someone attacked it with sandpaper and removed most of the old finish.

The good news is that they didn't do too much damage. A lot more sanding is needed, then maybe an oil finish, and the nice figured mahogany should look great.

Apart from the finish it is in surprisingly good shape. The hardware shows very little wear, and everything works.

This guitar is different from everything else I have tried, but I like it already.

beinhard

 

[AlohaJoe]

For $500 I'd say you did very well! Put some work in on the refin and you'll love it even more!

 

[beinhard]

For $500 I'd say you did very well! Put some work in on the refin and you'll love it even more!

Yes, I feel good about it.
I'll have to think a bit about what to do with the refinish, though.
It is tempting to have it restored to something close to original, but I don't really know anybody who do that kind of work here.
My own skills are limited to oil finish, which can be very nice, but is of course not "correct" for an S-50.
We'll see. I guess its value as collectible is gone anyway, but it should still have many years of playing left in it.

beinhard

 

[AlohaJoe]

My own skills are limited to oil finish, which can be very nice, but is of course not "correct" for an S-50. beinhard

Oil finishes are beautiful and very expensive to have done! That would be a huge upgrade in my view. Correct is standing in line and doing what you're told. :lol:

 

[guildman63]

I think too much is made of refin versus original at times. If you are looking for a guitar to hang on your wall that will appreciate in value then most Guilds should be avoided to begin with. If you want a guitar to play that sounds great, and as a bonus looks good, and you can get it for a reasonable price as you did it shouldn't matter if it is a refin or not (just make sure it's a Guild!). Play it til the remainder of the finish comes off, then make it look like something else and do it again! Enjoy!

 

[fronobulax]

I think too much is made of refin versus original at times.

You are probably right but my experience with brass instruments is that refinishing seriously alters the tone, and not always for the better. So when you ask me if something should be refinished my knee jerk answer is always no. On the other hand, if the item has already been refinished, you can probably assess the tone as it is currently and don't really care what it might have been.

 

[guildman63]

The guy I take my guitars to in Boston is an authorized Guild tech. He recommended a guy in RI that worked in Westerly for Guild for many years, apparently doing finish work. For those in the New England area this could be a good option. I don't have the info with me at the moment, but if anyone is interested feel free to email or IM me, and as soon as I am able I will forward the information to you.

 

[adorshki]

I think too much is made of refin versus original at times.

You are probably right but my experience with brass instruments is that refinishing seriously alters the tone, and not always for the better.

OK, you got my curiosity up, what's involved in refinishing brass? Plating? IF so, then say no more, I can see why it would affect tone.

 

[chazmo]

I think too much is made of refin versus original at times.

You are probably right but my experience with brass instruments is that refinishing seriously alters the tone, and not always for the better.

OK, you got my curiosity up, what's involved in refinishing brass? Plating? IF so, then say no more, I can see why it would affect tone.

Al,

Brass instruments are either lacquer coated or silver plated. I've played silver plated trumpets since my early teens, but I think frono is mostly referring to lacquered. A trend in recent years has been to go with unfinished brass, but these instruments will quickly deteriorate when left alone.

Silver plate is extremely durable in my experience. My first trumpet required a refin after 20 years of nearly constant playing. I've never had to replate another instrument. The effect on my trumpet was negligible, but I'm sure I decreased its value. It's not realistic to expect a brass instrument to maintain original finish indefinitely.

 

[fronobulax]

frono is mostly referring to lacquered

Yep. Lacquered brass.

 

[guildman63]

Here is an interesting article regarding the refinishing of brass instruments.

http://www.musictrader.com/finishingvin ... hones.html

As for guitars, it would seem to me that hollow body guitars would be more likely to be negatively affected by a refin than would solid body guitars due to the potential affects on resonance. That is just me speaking logically, but not with any clear evidence to support my supposition. I have read many articles that are in direct conflict over this topic, so it is clear that my initial post was simply my personal feelings regarding whether or not it is a good idea to refin an old Guild solid body guitar. The debate rages on!

 

[fronobulax]

Here is an interesting article regarding the refinishing of brass instruments.

http://www.musictrader.com/finishingvin ... hones.html

As for guitars, it would seem to me that hollow body guitars would be more likely to be negatively affected by a refin than would solid body guitars due to the potential affects on resonance. That is just me speaking logically, but not with any clear evidence to support my supposition. I have read many articles that are in direct conflict over this topic, so it is clear that my initial post was simply my personal feelings regarding whether or not it is a good idea to refin an old Guild solid body guitar. The debate rages on!

Interesting opinions.

I note that there are audiophiles who claim to hear the difference between analog vinyl LPs and digital CDs. I can't hear the difference and so I have to trust them, or not, when they say there is an audible difference. I suspect the same thing is going on when it comes to refinishing brass instruments.

I think it might be easier to hear a difference caused by the choice of finish (or refinish) in an acoustic guitar, but again, I have never had the chance to make the comparison for myself.

Whether it is rational, or not, I think the marketplace, in general, values an original finish over any cosmetic or other benefits of a refinish. Think "patina" on antique furniture as another example.

That seems to me to be the real driver. Rational or not, the market will punish you for refinishing so the decision comes down to a trade off between current utility and future value.

 

[adorshki]

I note that there are audiophiles who claim to hear the difference between analog vinyl LPs and digital CDs. I can't hear the difference and so I have to trust them, or not, when they say there is an audible difference. I suspect the same thing is going on when it comes to refinishing brass instruments.

I put myself in that camp but the best quality cd's I've heard now can equal vinyl, when played on "good" equipment. In fact in one case even exceed vinyl for accurate bass presence in the line signal. For a period of time there was a lot of poorly engineered (poorly re-mastered or even "un re-mastered") cd product being rushed to market and that was definitley part of the "equation".

I think it might be easier to hear a difference caused by the choice of finish (or refinish) in an acoustic guitar, but again, I have never had the chance to make the comparison for myself.

It's just like the digital vs analog argument. I'm sure the actual frequency differences would be measurable by oscilloscopes and spectrum analyzers, but how many people could actually hear the difference....?

Whether it is rational, or not, I think the marketplace, in general, values an original finish over any cosmetic or other benefits of a refinish. Think "patina" on antique furniture as another example..that seems to me to be the real driver. Rational or not, the market will punish you for refinishing so the decision comes down to a trade off between current utility and future value.

I agree. It's another one of those similarities to the collector car market, or pretty much any collectible market, refinishing inevitably lowers appraisal value. BUT that doesn't always neccessarily correlate to the selling price of a specific item, as we've seen.

 

[guildman63]

Whether it is rational, or not, I think the marketplace, in general, values an original finish over any cosmetic or other benefits of a refinish. Think "patina" on antique furniture as another example.

That seems to me to be the real driver. Rational or not, the market will punish you for refinishing so the decision comes down to a trade off between current utility and future value.

This goes back to my initial post, that to refin or not refin (that is the question) depends upon your ultimate objective. If one wishes to purchase a guitar that will ultimately be worth something at some point in the future you will most likely want to avoid refin's. If, however, the objective is to get a guitar that sounds and plays great, and that will actually be played and not just hung on a wall as a status symbol or kept for future value then refin's may not necessarily be a bad thing. In fact, there are many who feel that to refin an instrument is desirable for the long-term performance of that instrument as it serves to protect the underlying structure of the instrument as it was initially created during production.

As an example, the Stradivarius violin is perhaps the most well known and respected stringed instrument that exists. According to reports, every one of the remaining violins in existence has had some form of repair or modification, and all but six have a non-original neck (compliments of Gruhn Newsletter 28, September 2006). Of course, they were probably made during the late 17th century, but with modifications, repairs, replaced necks they are still considered some of the finest instruments ever made, and currently sell for millions of dollars...each! Just a little food for thought.

 

[ant_riv]

Lots of great discussion in this thread!

I agree with most of what has been said concerning "value" being affected by refinishing.

I would like to add another perspective that is just my opinion and therefore worth exactly what you paid for it.

I think as supplies of mahogany continue to deplete, eventually any guitar made from mahogany will become "collectible" and, as guildman63 states regarding changes made to Stradivarius, eventually will achieve iconic status regardless of alterations, so long as they are well done.
While I do not think mahogany-bodied guitars will ever hit the same financial level as a Stradivarius, they will likely become prized for being made from rare/unique wood, much like what is happening with Brazilian Rosewood. I expect unaltered "originals" will still be more highly valued though.

Of course, most of us will be long-gone by then.

IMO and ymmv!

 

[fronobulax]

I think as supplies of mahogany continue to deplete, eventually any guitar made from mahogany will become "collectible" and, as guildman63 states regarding changes made to Stradivarius, eventually will achieve iconic status regardless of alterations, so long as they are well done.

Interesting and thought provoking insight. Thanks.