Vintage Guilds and neck problems.......

[shepke]

Dr. Spivey's link to Frets.com shows how to check a neck angle pretty clearly as far as I can see, and you are quite right adorshki, a twisted neck is usually a different matter altogether. I'm no expert luthier but I've done a ton of setups over the years and I've gotten pretty good at it from what I'm told - after a while you can just sort of eyeball these things. The picture I looked at that onewilyfool linked from another thread is of dapmdave's newly acquired D-50. If you read through that thread you will notice that his repair person just did a few adjustments and it was fine (no neck reset indicated – and that’s what I see also).

This is the sort of thing I'm talking about. A number of Guilds I've looked at, played, and worked on just seem to have a slightly lower saddle profile than say a Martin of comparable age and condition. Also, it’s not all that uncommon for me to do the straight edge test (maybe 3 examples in the past couple of years - including a 1978 D35 I set up and made a new bone saddle for in May) and notice that it comes to rest a little below the bridge, and that the distance from the top to the strings is a less than the ideal 1/2" (as shown in Dr. Spivey's Frets.com link). As far as my experience tells me (for whatever it's worth) this just doesn't necessarily mean very much. Usually there's still a good break angle and with a truss rod adjustment, and sometimes a new saddle, everything comes out fine.

As an example of this, my 1974 F112 has always looked kind of iffy (not much saddle left – sort of like what 12 string describes with his F112 in a previous post), but the break angle is certainly adequate and it’s been that way for years and years and never seems to change (basically I’ve stopped thinking about it – waiting for this thing to need a neck reset is sort of like waiting for Godot).

Having said that, the need for a neck reset can obviously be a problem on any guitar, but if it really requires one, believe me you'll know it. (I’ve never had a neck reset done on any of my guitars, past or present, but I’ve played a few that were definitely candidates).

Someone else above talked about how wood settles in newer guitars, which I think, is significant here, and so I'll reiterate my tentative (and certainly falsifiable) theory about the guitars in question.

1. The initial neck angles were a little off (which I still suspect happened somewhat more often in 70's Westerly built instruments, although I have no hard evidence for this – and sorry if I’m offending anyone).

2. There was some subsequent movement in these necks joints early on as the wood settled over time.

3. After a period of settling these guitars remain very stable (barring heavy strings and bad weather), showing a less than idea angle and saddle profile, but with no deleterious effects on action or tone, and with no impending neck reset on the horizon.

Another contributor here pointed out that Guild necks are notoriously difficult to remove, and I think this might be another factor that supports my hypothesis. The initial slightly “off” neck angle may continue to deepen a little as the wood settles, but once this period is over the sheer strength of the Guild dovetail joint retards any further movement.

If onewilyfool is talking about guitars that look like dapmdave’s D50, I really don’t think there’s too much to worry about. I’d sure like to see a D50 in that condition come my way at a good price.

 

[onewilyfool]

First you check the relief of the neck, THEN check with straightedge.....pretty simple. Here is another Guild for sale locally. 3/16" action (double for standard setup recommended by most manufacturer's AND the saddle looks like it is flush with the bridge.....I have not seen this guitar, but I wouldn't waste my time. It needs a neck reset. If you want to belt sand down your bridge, sawcut behind the strings, flatten the neck to kind of shoehorn your guitar into playing condition, be my guest. That was not the intent of my original post. It was just to record my experiences in looking locally for a good Guild Dreadnaught, and my frustrations with all the neck problems.....that is all. Apologists and brand loyalists notwithstanding, that is my experience......take it or leave it. Here is the local guitar:

http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sfc/msg/1828989126.html

 

[shepke]

I'll admit that one does look pretty bad! Is this typical of what you've been seeing in the other Guild guitars? If so keep looking because there are lots of great ones out there that won't give you any trouble.

 

[onewilyfool]

I'll admit that one does look pretty bad! Is this typical of what you've been seeing in the other Guild guitars? If so keep looking because there are lots of great ones out there that won't give you any trouble.

This one is pretty bad, but per my original post, neck twists, low saddles and high action are the norm, OTHERWISE I would have bought at least 4 of them. They sounded great and with proper neck angle, string break and action, they would have been keepers. One other thing, in the Bay Area around SF, prices are inflated somewhat because of cost of living etc., AND Guilds in the past few years have been "discovered" as it were as being equal or better than the other big TWO. So if the sellers are asking blue book or over pricing, and their guitars need repairs, I just move on. The one guitar I did get was a FMCE 47. Now this is a great guitar. The lowest non-buzzing action of any guitar I have ever played, TONS of saddle left, straight edge lines perfectly with the top of bridge.....no problems at all.....and it is a 2001. But I've played Guild D's in my quest for a Dread, that were of similar age, and needed neck resets. So, the search will continue. Here is another local Guild for sale, priced at about $1000 over blue book. It has been on craigslist for four months. It is just humorous to me......He wouldn't give me measurements I asked for. Saddle looks low, usually 12 strings frets are pitted for some reason.....so "buyer beware"!!!

http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sby/msg/1819323487.html

 

[devellis]

I think Frank Ford's specs are pretty conservative. I've played guitars that had neck alignments that fell a bit below the edge of the bridge and that had string-above-top clearances less than Ford recommends that seemed fine. On the other hand, I would be reluctant, personally, to buy a guitar with a very low saddle and wouldn't buy a guitar with a shaved bridge unless it was priced low enough that the price of a neck reset and new bridge wouldn't put the total cost out of line. A shallow saddle socket with a substantial amount of saddle protruding can cause a bridge to split. Of course, it may not. But clearly the leverage on a less substantial chunk of wood increases the risk. Also, if a neck reset becomes unavoidable, a shaved bridge will necessitate not only the neck work but installing a new bridge and saddle to align properly with the correctly positioned neck. Everybody can and should make there own call as to how they feel about this and I'm just expressing my personal opinion, not arguing that I'm more right than anyone else.

I can understand why an owner would feel differently about these issues. I have a guitar whose saddle is pretty low and I'm fine with it because I know how stable its been for a very long time and I'm happy with the action and overall playing feel. But I'd be reluctant to buy a comparable guitar that I hadn't lived with for a long time. I'm also not crazy about slotting/ramping as a fix for a low break angle. Again, if I owned a guitar and planned on keeping it forever, it probably wouldn't bother me. But on a guitar I was planning on buying, that would put me off. On the guitar I have that has a low saddle, I haven't slotted/ramped the peg holes or lowered the bridge because I may well swell it and I believe that the buyer should make that call. My recommendation to a potential buyer would be to leave it alone because I think it plays fine.

I guess all of this puts me on both sides of the discussion. I think there are signs of neck misalignment on lots of old instruments on the market (not limiting that to Guilds). In many cases, the extent of misalignment may not have reached a point where it's a problem and using measurements alone may not be the best way to determine that. Playing is the ultimate test. At the same time, I'd be less inclined to buy a guitar that had these issues, given a choice between one that did and one that didn't. The higher the value/price of the guitar, the greater my reluctance would be. Again, just my personal opinion.

 

[shepke]

Sounds pretty sensible to me.

 

[shepke]

The issues brought up in this thread raise a lot of interesting questions about when a Guild needs a neck reset and related questions about saddle height and neck angle on some older instruments, so I decided to do a complete setup on my 1974 F112 (including a new saddle, which it needed and which would allow me to get some very accurate measurements on the whole instrument. This is a guitar that onewileyfool would probably argue needs a reset from the general looks of it.

After doing a truss rod adjustment to reduce the relief a little (I like 12 strings to have as little relief as possible without buzzing because even tiny reductions in string height and action can make a noticeable difference on these instruments, especially if you play up the neck a lot), I checked the neck angle with a straight edge. The angle was a little deep and fell a bit more than 1/16 of an inch below the top of the bridge. Not too bad, but certainly not perfect either. After checking the action with the old strings still on, I then removed all the strings and removed the old nut, which seemed too low. The action was a very low 5/64” and there was some extraneous buzzing on the low E and A up to about the 4th or 5th fret – not real bad but I thought I could improve this with a slightly higher saddle (the nut was fine so I didn’t mess with it). I was aiming for around 3/32” (which is still pretty low for a 12 string). This way if the truss needed a little more relief at the end of the process, the action would probably stay in the range of 7/64”. Using the usual calculation I decided to add 1/32” to the new saddle in order to raise the action 1/64th at the twelfth fret. Once the saddle was made (I used a bone blank with no compensation like the original for this instrument), I took a measurement of the saddle height. Here’s where things would probably get sticky for onewileyfool. The saddle height above the bridge on the bass side came out at slightly less than 3/32” and slightly lower than that on the treble side at about 5/64 (Some where between ”25 – 40%, or thereabouts, below the recommended 1/8”). It also looked kind of low at a glance, especially on the treble side. By the way, Guild saddles from this period are considerably narrower than the standard, making them often look less sustantial and lower to the bridge than they actually are (especially in photos).

Once I restrung the guitar (I used D’Addario PB Lights but replaced the high E and B strings with 12s and 16s respectively and the unwound G with a 10 for better tone), I checked the break angle over the saddle. The first string in each course looked a little shallow but still decent. Once in tune (I tune these instruments to D and capo when I play although the measurements of action here were taken uncapoed), I had to add slightly more relief to the neck before it played completely buzz-free with a flat pick, bringing the action up ever so slightly, less than 1/64.

The guitar sounded great – loud, full-bodied, bright, and buzz-free all the way up the neck. Overall it’s looked and played this way for ages without any noticeable shifting in the neck or other changes in geometry.

My point here is simple – just because a Guild guitar looks a little off by onewilyfool’s standards, doesn’t mean it won’t play like a champ (given a good setup) and continue to play like a champ for years and years to come. If the sound is healthy, the guitar is healthy, and I think that’s especially true for robustly built Guild 12 stringers.

 

[charliea]

Amen. I think your measurements and experience are pretty common for the 12's. Certainly for mine, anyway.

 

[onewilyfool]

I wouldn't say this guitar needs a neck reset......plus it is a 12 string, which I am not that familiar with. But if a guitar has 3/32' showing at the saddle, is only 1/16" down on the straight edge test (with a full height non-shaved bridge), and has action at 3/32" with no buzzing and proper relief......this guitar would be a great one. Especially if it was 20 years old and most of the movement in the neck has already occured......no, I would say these specs are pretty good. If straight edge test (after relief set) is over 1/8", action is over 4/32" at the 12th fret, AND saddle showing less than 3/32"....I will pass.

The issues brought up in this thread raise a lot of interesting questions about when a Guild needs a neck reset and related questions about saddle height and neck angle on some older instruments, so I decided to do a complete setup on my 1974 F112 (including a new saddle, which it needed and which would allow me to get some very accurate measurements on the whole instrument. This is a guitar that onewileyfool would probably argue needs a reset from the general looks of it.

After doing a truss rod adjustment to reduce the relief a little (I like 12 strings to have as little relief as possible without buzzing because even tiny reductions in string height and action can make a noticeable difference on these instruments, especially if you play up the neck a lot), I checked the neck angle with a straight edge. The angle was a little deep and fell a bit more than 1/16 of an inch below the top of the bridge. Not too bad, but certainly not perfect either. After checking the action with the old strings still on, I then removed all the strings and removed the old nut, which seemed too low. The action was a very low 5/64” and there was some extraneous buzzing on the low E and A up to about the 4th or 5th fret – not real bad but I thought I could improve this with a slightly higher saddle (the nut was fine so I didn’t mess with it). I was aiming for around 3/32” (which is still pretty low for a 12 string). This way if the truss needed a little more relief at the end of the process, the action would probably stay in the range of 7/64”. Using the usual calculation I decided to add 1/32” to the new saddle in order to raise the action 1/64th at the twelfth fret. Once the saddle was made (I used a bone blank with no compensation like the original for this instrument), I took a measurement of the saddle height. Here’s where things would probably get sticky for onewileyfool. The saddle height above the bridge on the bass side came out at slightly less than 3/32” and slightly lower than that on the treble side at about 5/64 (Some where between ”25 – 40%, or thereabouts, below the recommended 1/8”). It also looked kind of low at a glance, especially on the treble side. By the way, Guild saddles from this period are considerably narrower than the standard, making them often look less sustantial and lower to the bridge than they actually are (especially in photos).

Once I restrung the guitar (I used D’Addario PB Lights but replaced the high E and B strings with 12s and 16s respectively and the unwound G with a 10 for better tone), I checked the break angle over the saddle. The first string in each course looked a little shallow but still decent. Once in tune (I tune these instruments to D and capo when I play although the measurements of action here were taken uncapoed), I had to add slightly more relief to the neck before it played completely buzz-free with a flat pick, bringing the action up ever so slightly, less than 1/64.

The guitar sounded great – loud, full-bodied, bright, and buzz-free all the way up the neck. Overall it’s looked and played this way for ages without any noticeable shifting in the neck or other changes in geometry.

My point here is simple – just because a Guild guitar looks a little off by onewilyfool’s standards, doesn’t mean it won’t play like a champ (given a good setup) and continue to play like a champ for years and years to come. If the sound is healthy, the guitar is healthy, and I think that’s especially true for robustly built Guild 12 stringers.