Vintage Guilds and neck problems.......

[onewilyfool]

I have now visited or asked for detailed measurements of 20 vintage Guilds (D's and J's) on local Craig's listings. All were made in RI, as that is the only ones I'm interested in at this time. Virtually ALL of the sellers were asking top dollar based on various blue book evaluations of guitars, based on excellent condition. Most guitars were NOT in excellent condition. In addition, ALL but on had neck problems. Two had twisted necks, and virtually ALL of them needed neck resets based on 12th fret action and amount of saddle showing above bridge. Two had bridges "shaved" to expose more saddle. Neck resets are VERY expensive in this area, and there is a premium for bound necks and for Guilds. I guess my question is this, why are all of these guitars (oldest 1976, youngest 2001) having neck problems????? It is beyond me. This doesn't even include the listings who wouldn't respond to me when I asked questions about action and saddle height. I'm assuming they knew about the neck problems, and just blew me off. With this many guitars, I can't assume that this is a random statistical bubble. You guys that have bought used and vintage Guilds lately, have there been neck problems that needed major work????? I just don't understand why this would be such a Guild problem when Martins and Gibsons I've checked out don't have the same problem. By the way, virtually ALL the guitars sounded great when you squint past the playability problems.....Just wondering what your experience is.....thanks

 

[Russell Letson]

I've owned a half-dozen Guilds from the '58-70 period and played dozens of others and not noticed any more neck-geometry problems than one would expect for instruments of a given age. My D-40 has had a couple of neck resets since 1967, but my other Guilds haven't needed such work. I've seen the usual range shaved-saddle/bulging-top/lifting-bridge stuff, but no twisted necks. I don't care much for Guilds after 1970 (though I like the Tacoma-period ones a lot), and I see that the instruments surveyed all fall well after that date. Maybe that's the crucial fact.

 

[learnintoplay62]

Hey Wiley, not sure if I can answer your observation but a couple of questions-
did you actually go and play all 20 or so guitars and /or take the appropriate measurements ? There are many a Ltg members who have bought ( including myself ) older guilds that aren't in need of neck resets.
Finally, I wouldn't expect an unbiased opinion here :wink: Oh and by the way, in my experience of watching the internet sales I have not ever seen any twisted necks except when killdeer posts the famous portrait from seattle

 

[fronobulax]

I will confess that I would be hard pressed to identify whether a guitar needed a neck reset or not. However what I infer from discussions on LTG is that there is a certain amount of subjectivity on the subject. First there is the simple question - is something wrong? Some folks answer that by measuring things but others do so by playing. They don't always come to the same answer. Second, there is the question of how should the problem be fixed? Sometimes it seems like shaving the bridge is the right answer but other times that just treats the symptoms and the cure is a neck reset. However, given the amount of subjectivity involved, I'd be reluctant to make a generalization about a collection of guitars from a particular time and place.

 

[chazmo]

For the most part, frono is correct.

 

[charliea]

I think whoever arbitrarily came up with that straight edge to the bridge standard didn't know squat about Guilds. I have three Guild 12-strings. The G312 came to me with the bridge lowered and holes slotted, apparently by an owner in the misty past. It's now completely stable, and plays like a dream. My '95 JF65-12 arrived needing the treatment, which I did myself in a couple of hours. That was over a year ago, and it remains perfect. The '98 JF65-12 I just bought needed it, too, so I lowered the bridge and slotted the holes this AM. It's a simple matter to sand it down about 1/8", ream the pin holes (I invested in a ten-buck reamer from Grizzly), and lower the saddle. The instruments sound terrific and play beautifully. Should these guitars actually need a reset at some future date I'll be happy to pay for a new bridge, but I'm 63 and have a feeling I won't be facing that problem.

 

[jgwoods]

My experience is that Guilds are no worse, no better than Martin or Gibson when it comes to needing a neck reset. My '75 had one a long time back and has not needed another.
What is your criteria for deciding a guitar needs a neck reset?

The way I play I need a fairly high action- more than 1/4" at the 12th fret or I'll get buzzing everywhere. I don't play much above the 9th fret so I almost never have high action issues with guitars. Banjos either- clawhammer players are notorious for playing with high action- 5/16 is low, 3/8 about right and I can play well with a hlf in at the 12th fret.

Mandolins on the other hand- gotta stay pretty low, but even there I play'em higher than most like.

Craigs listers, ebayers- there's an awful lot of folks hiding behind feigned ignorance and not disclosing actual condition, or using the always popular- "it has a few little issues, won't take but ten minutes for your luthier to fix"
It's no different with cars, etc.

 

[adorshki]

I think whoever arbitrarily came up with that straight edge to the bridge standard didn't know squat about Guilds.

That measurment isn't "arbitrary", it's an excellent way to check if the geometry is at the optimum for good break angle over the saddle, which gives the best volume possible from the instrument. If that geometry is good then action can also be set for optimum balance between ease of play/elimination of buzz. So it's kind of the "cornerstone" for other measurements. 8)

 

[adorshki]

I have now visited or asked for detailed measurements of 20 vintage Guilds (D's and J's) on local Craig's listings. I guess my question is this, why are all of these guitars (oldest 1976, youngest 2001) having neck problems?????

Consider the source. It's not logically valid to extend the problem to one of a manufacturer's imcompetence from such a narrow sample. On top of that, I submit that the quality of innstruments offered on Craig's list is much more likely to be lower than a comparable sample found in "real" instrument shops. There's a greater likelihood of poor mainteneance by unknowledgable owners resulting in these problems, ESPECIALLY when one considers the typical demographic implied by the Craig's list ads I've seen. Another probability variable is that maybe these guitars are on Craigs's list BECAUSE they have problems, whether the sellers admit to being aware of them or are simply ignorant and don't know they've mainined their guitars poorly. Basically that's the LAST place I'd START looking for a guitar.
Admittedly my youngest is only 6 and my oldest is only 13 but I'm the original owner, they've never been tuned above standard pitch or with heavier than spec'd strings (another thing I've noticed is quite common by casual owners, they don't realize they keep tuning up sharp, and there's a great way to put stress on a neck) and mine're all spot-on in their neck angles. I'm firmly in the camp that proper care and maintenance is the single most important factor governing the need for a neck reset.
In counterpoint you've given us a great primer on how guitars SHOULD be shopped for when dealing with long-distance purchasing.

 

[12 string]

For the most part, frono is correct.

:lol: :lol: Good one Chazmo! :lol: :lol:

And for the most part, Chazmo is correct.

And so is Hans.

Veering back, my '78 G-312 had a shaved bridge when I got it, and not a whole lot of saddle, but it plays and sounds the way it should. Not sure if my '76 F-112 has been shaved, but it's a keeper. Neither guitar is far from needing a neckset but fortunately for me they have both been absolutely stable for the 20+ years I've had them.

About twice in 40+ years of multiple Guild 12 stranging I've addressed slight twists with the dual trussrods. Stuff happens.

My guess would be that both guitars may have left the factory with borderline or less than optimal neck angle and bridge and saddle height. Forum members have told me such problems are not all that uncommon with Guilds and with dovetail necks in general. I'm not at all sure the Guild is any worse than other manufacturers in this regard, in fact I'm sure Guild is better than many others.

' Strang

 

[onewilyfool]

Just to be fair, I didn't test all of them. BUT if a seller tells me that there is 3/16" between bottom of E strings and top of 12 fret, and there is 1/32" of saddle showing, I didn't even go to see it. The "twisted" necks were on two I visited, where the bass E side was just under 3/32" higher than the treble E side. Action was the same on both sides, so this shows a twist in the neck. I took my 24" straight edge to every one I tried, and the straight edge was from 1/4" below the top of bridge to flush with the top of the spruce top. So....all this implies BIG neck problems, translate that into "lots-of-cash-to-fix". The only guitar that had no problems was a F-47 MCE, which has the best action of ANY of my guitars, and loads of saddle left to adjust over time. That one, I bought....Again, the others needed neck resets, and fretboard planing to adjust for the twists....... and were priced in the excellent bracket of blue book values, even though they had scuffs, dings, scratches, dents, buckle rash, and sweat finish problems. After I pointed out the problems at the visit, there was NO changes to the descriptions or prices on the Craigslistings, so they either sold as is, or were taken off the market. I guess I'm saying, buyer beware, and I'm wondering why so many from this vintage are having problems.

 

[adorshki]

Again, the others needed neck resets, and fretboard planing to adjust for the twists....... and were priced in the excellent bracket of blue book values, even though they had scuffs, dings, scratches, dents, buckle rash, and sweat finish problems. After I pointed out the problems at the visit, there was NO changes to the descriptions or prices on the Craigslistings, so they either sold as is, or were taken off the market. I guess I'm saying, buyer beware, and I'm wondering why so many from this vintage are having problems.

Again, I say, consider the sources, you're describing obvious lack of love and respect for the intruments. Probably lots of folks thinking just 'cause it's old it must be valuable, or hoping to foist the problem off on someone else who hasn't learned better yet.

 

[jgwoods]

I think you can take a 24 inch straight edge, lay it on the frets and up to the bridge- then turn the truss rod and watch it go up and down. And, when the straight edge hits the spot on the bridge you think is optimum the neck may not have the correct relief. I wouldn't make judgments on the need for a neck reset based on that kind of inspection.

 

[onewilyfool]

I visually check relief on all the guitars I tried before checking with the straightedge. I'm not sure how lack of love can cause necks to need resests, but perhaps.

 

[shepke]

I think there’s something to what onewilyfool is saying. Over the years I’ve noticed that the neck angles on a lot of Guilds from the 1970s (and not so much with Hoboken-built guitars - although my experience here is more limited) seem to be slightly under set, and I’ve come to accept this as pretty common for these instruments. It doesn’t necessarily effect action or tone, but there sometimes seems to be less saddle on these guitars than with other manufacturers and the straight edge test (when I’ve had a chance to do it) often confirms this. Why this is I have no idea, but I’ve observed it over and over again. When I first noticed it on some of my own instruments and others I’d played over the years it bothered me a little and I’d always check obsessively when I was playing one in a music store to see if this were the case. Over time I’ve come to accept that it’s usually not a problem. I’ve done a lot of setups on a variety of Guilds that involved new compensated saddles (which I usually have to sand slightly low) and with the right neck relief and the action at about 3/32’ or a little more, a measurement of the distance between the top of the saddle and the bridge is often less than the prescribed 1/8’ - although playability and tone are usually just fine. My very unscientific and tentative conclusion has been that Guilds from this period simply have a slightly different neck geometry. It seems to me that a Guild will need a neck reset when action and tone are compromised and not simply when the measurements seem a little off.

 

[West R Lee]

And to what might you guys attribute this phenomenon to? Inferior neck wood? An inferior neck block? Inferior bracing? Nah, I think over time all guitars are adversely affected by string tension. I don't think it's unique to 70's Guilds. In fact, one of the reasons repairmen don't particularly enjoy resetting Guild necks is that the neck joint is so stout. And I've certaily seen Hoboken built Guild guitars that needed a neck reset.......bunch of Martins and Gibsons too.

West

 

[12 string]

+1 West.

I have not heard people on this board saying saying that their experience with Guilds of this era is anything like that of the OP and the group of guitars he references. I've been a multiple Guild 12 string owner for 4 decades and none of the 7 Guilds I've owned (1967-2001) has needed a neckset or had any serious neck issue or even a minor one that I couldn't resolve myself. As I mentioned before, 2 are close to needing serious work but they've been holding their own and I think they're likely to continue doing so.

(Edit) Okay, I forgot. There were two minor neck issues: the F-112 developed one of those trussrod channel cracks (usually you see 2 parallel cracks) about 2" long behind the first couple of frets. The G-312 had a similar problem involving a similarly placed delamination of the 3 piece neck. In each instance my luthier friend wicked in a whiff of red epoxy, did some finish touch-up and I was good to go. Quick easy inexpensive repairs which have held long enough for me to forget about them. Still nothing like the OP's tale of woe.

' Strang

 

[West R Lee]

I've got 8 of them, and have owned several others....though only one is a 70's....., but same here. I think we just hear about several of them because this IS the Guild site, but there are literally hundreds of them that belong to members here that haven't needed or don't need a neck reset. I've probably heard of more problems with Taylor guitars than any other....no offense Carl. :wink: I'd bet anything that if we were the Martin site, we'd hear stories constantly of 20, 30 and 40 year old Martins needing neck resets.

West

 

[shepke]

I don’t think the issue is inferior workmanship or materials, I just have the suspicion that a significant number of 70s Guilds may have been originally set with a slightly different neck angle (there’s likely to be some minor variation in a certain percentage of cases, whichever the manufacturer) and that over time, with normal movement of the neck, these particular instruments show less saddle and don’t quite pass the straightedge test with flying colors. 12 String’s statements about his G312 and F112 might very well support this admittedly deductive hypothesis – they kind of look like a neck reset is on the horizon, but they’ve remained stable for 20 years or more; ergo, a slightly different initial neck geometry. My beloved 1974 F112 is much the same as he describes his, as was a mid 70s F212XL that I regrettably no longer own. This is not to mention several others I’ve played and worked on over the years. As others have stated here, measurement is not the only standard to go by. Stability over time may be more important than initial neck angle, and here I think Guild is the equal of any manufacturer. Any thoughts on this?

 

[Taylor Martin Guild]

I have waited to see what other have to say before I jumped in on this.
I agree with the OP that I have heard a lot more chatter about Guild necks than any other guitar.

I'm not saying that it is true but I do see a lot of warnings about knowing the condition of the necks on used Guilds that are for sale.

My guess is the same as some others have already stated.
Guild neck re-sets cost more and some luthiers won't even do them.
This seems to translate into beware of used Guilds with bad necks.

I have no idea if Guilds are more prone to needing neck re-sets but I sure do see that Guild owners are not worried about having the work done if or when it may be needed.

I also remember reading here that someone thought the reason was that Guilds were often subjected to more abuse than say Martins because they cost less.

I can't buy into that myself but I did read it here.

This will be debated for many years because I know of no study that is being offered, to
see what guitar maker has the highest need for neck re-sets.

I don't know about everyone else but I think that I will just play my Guild and let someone else worry about if and when it will need neck work.