To pickup or not to pickup-that is the question

[bruzmuse]

I have a few Westerlies and I've put Martin Thinlines in a couple and (my favorites) a couple K&K's. I've got a D30-AB for sale with a Thinline in it.

The topic is, what do you prefer when you're looking to buy a Westerly Guild, pickup or no pickup and why?

I know the "purists" will always prefer stock but many, many Westerly Guilds and post - Westerly Guilds came with under saddle pickups from the factory. Those are certainly "stock" too, yes? They are original factory produced guitars.

K&K's are installed without moving or changing the bridge saddle. The hole where the endpin jack goes is only slightly larger than the one made for the original end pin. That's a very minute change to the guitar and in no way would affect playability or the sound of the guitar when played unplugged.

The undersaddle pickups do require a more precise install since you're removing, modifying and replacing the bridge saddle to accomodate the space being taken up by the pickup. But if professionally done, the action remains the same. Do we know if the undersaddle pickups change the original tone at all just by being between the bridge saddle and the guitar? I can't really say for sure.

Does the value of the guitar change if it has an after market pickup installed? If so, how? Up? Down?

Comments?

 

[6L6]

I gig professionally and frequently play O/M's as well. Therefore, having GOOD pickup installed is a plus for me.

IMHO, the Thinline pups sound just awful. Technology has come a LONG way since Thinlines were the happenin' thing! My own favs today are the Highlander iP-2 and Fishman Matrix pup systems. Both are active and give me the tone I like best.

My main gigging axe these days is a 2006 Guild D-55 with the Fishman Matrix system. I gig with it through a number of BOSS pedals and a Fender Acoustasonic Jr DSP amp. Tone heaven!

6

 

[fronobulax]

Since a soundhole PU that I can install myself is about $50, my going in position is that an acoustic with a PU installed is worth at least $50 more than the identical instrument without one. That is a lower bound because the quality of the installed PU and the convenience are also worth something to me. It doesn't matter to me whether the PU was factory installed or aftermarket so long as the installation is a quality job.

That said, whether I would pay that premium depends upon why I am looking at amplification. Some PUs are quite transparent - the amplified sound is very close to the acoustic sound but some color the sound. So if I want an uncolored sound then I know that some PUs and the type of installation are better (and hence worth more) than others.

I personally don't like dealing with microphones and stands but people whose opinion I value and trust maintain that the truest way to amplify an acoustic uses a couple of good external mics.

I p*ssed off an LTG poster because I failed to realize that there is a psychological factor associated with installing a PU as well. Their position was that there was something pure about an acoustic guitar and that was compromised by installing a PU. (I hope that is a reasonable paraphrase since I'm not going to search for the exchange and see exactly what was said. I Remember Things That Did Not Happen). So if you can sympathize with that then you probably would not pay a premium for a PU. Ditto if you are willing to work with a mike.

 

[evenkeel]

I have a few Westerlies and I've put Martin Thinlines in a couple and (my favorites) a couple K&K's. I've got a D30-AB for sale with a Thinline in it.
The topic is, what do you prefer when you're looking to buy a Westerly Guild, pickup or no pickup and why?

Like most answers on LTG. Depends :wink:
I also gig a fair amount so a pick up is important for me. However, I've tried a mess of different ones and have settled on the K&K. I recently added a GF-30 to the herd that came with a UST. Only took a couple of OM's to figure out it had to go. It now has a K&K and at least to my ears, the difference is huge.

In general terms, and with no disrespect to those who feel different, first decide what you want the guitar to do. If you want to play at home, or on stage with an external mic and you just feel better about leaving the guitar in factory condition then great. But if you're like me and gig out and do the Open Mic thing then maybe a pickup is a better option.

Value with or w/o a pickup is very sketchy at best. A Hoboken or Westerly built, in mint shape is probably more valuable w/o any after factory mods. But, I put K&K's in the D-35 and the GF-30. On some level guitars are a tool, a means to an end. Figure out what the "end" is, then set the guitar up to do the job.

 

[Yoko Oh No]

it's a personal choice...i like a guitar without modifications to the factory build. i use a dimarzio soundhole pickup that i can easily place and remove if i need amplification. honestly though, i prefer the sound of an acoustic instrument in a small venue without amplification or effects.

then again, consider these words of wisdom:

?Nigel Tufnel: The numbers all go to eleven. Look, right across the board, eleven, eleven, eleven and...
?Marty DiBergi: Oh, I see. And most amps go up to ten?
?Nigel Tufnel: Exactly.
?Marty DiBergi: Does that mean it's louder? Is it any louder?
?Nigel Tufnel: Well, it's one louder, isn't it? It's not ten. You see, most blokes, you know, will be playing at ten. You're on ten here, all the way up, all the way up, all the way up, you're on ten on your guitar. Where can you go from there? Where?
?Marty DiBergi: I don't know.
?Nigel Tufnel: Nowhere. Exactly. What we do is, if we need that extra push over the cliff, you know what we do?
?Marty DiBergi: Put it up to eleven.
?Nigel Tufnel: Eleven. Exactly. One louder.

 

[Taylor Martin Guild]

The question was asked about how an under the saddle PU affects the natural acoustic sound.
I have had a USP installed in 2 guitars over the years.
When they were put in, I didn't notice any didderence in the acoustic sound of the guitars.
Several years later, I removed the pick ups from the guitars and installed new saddles.

There was a marked improvement in the natural acoustic sound in both guitars.
To be fair, one had a bone saddle in it with the pick up and the other one had something other than bone in it with the pick up.

My thoughts are that a USP does take away a very small amount of the acoustic sound but not much.
Of course every guitar will react differently.

If I install a pick up again, I will go with a K&K type and keep the saddle stock, with nothing else between it and the bridge.

For my best sound when plugged in, I use a mic and a pick up.
This gives a natural sound with a bit of an edge.

 

[Janpeter]

Built in pickups in the Guilds: Well, all my three Guilds have built-in pickups - and they are absolutely working fine and handsome without any trouble, and hardly any feedback. - Therefore I'd always go the same way again and have the Guild pickups already mounted! - The colouring of the tone / sound also is quite natural; this you can of course always blend later / coming out of the guitar's pickup.

Jan-Peter

 

[Siwash]

I've walked away from guitars that someone put a pickup in. I'm an acoustic "purist" and just feel it's not a right setup for me. To me, pickups can deface a guitar.

 

[fronobulax]

To me, pickups can deface a guitar.

Do you mean that literally, in the sense that it bothers you when you can observe the fact that the PU is there (visible controls, visible installation, added weight, etc.) or is it more of a psychological thing - you know it is there and thus it degrades the instrument? Only reason for asking is that it is possible to install a PU that is pretty hard to observe/detect.

 

[charliea]

I'm now using a Schatten passive pickup in my 65-12. Looks like a banjo bridge, weighs .2 ounces, installs with double-sided tape, and sounds amazing. It's wired through a Vintage Jack, and the whole thing can be removed without a trace in a few minutes. Doesn't affect the sound at all, far as I can tell. http://www.schattendesign.com/HFN-Artist.htm

 

[chazmo]

bruzmuze,

My own modest acoustic collection demonstrates that factory electronics are of no interest to me. But, if I were buying a new guitar, I would consider it for sure.

As far as 10+ year old acoustic guitars, I would consider a factory pickup system to be a detriment, particularly one that had knobs and faceplates via drill-holes in the guitar sides/top. If all that's involved is a drilled-out endpin, that probably wouldn't bother me much at all.

All that said, I'm not sure how the market at large reacts to this; I was just giving my own opinion.

 

[adorshki]

If it came with a pickup from the factory I'm fine with it. I wouldn't add one that required ANY mods to the guitar, 'cause I'm in that "purist" camp, at least for the instruments I own.
The F65ce came with UST AND soundhole mic, I don't think the UST is detracting anything from tone.

 

[Dr Izza Plumber]

IMHO, adding a quality aftermarket p/u to a Westerly or any Guild axe does not necessarily change the tone or detract value from the guitar, if installed with care.

Electronics can actually be very helpful when tuning a git in a noisy environment.
Plugging a guitar, (12 string per se) directly into the electronic tuner, simplifies the chore, and often precludes any additional tuning time.

K&K's active and LR Bagg's active Ibeam pick ups are practically non-invasive, 'cept for the reaming of the end pin opening, and that too can be overcome by installing a mini-plug, though I prefer the full sized 1/4" connection.
The LR Baggs Ibeam includes a sweet li'l jig for proper placement of the bar underneath the saddle area, so I'd have to give the Ibeam an edge over the K&K for simplification of install.

 

[Christopher Cozad]

...The topic is, what do you prefer when you're looking to buy a Westerly Guild, pickup or no pickup and why?

I am a player, not a collector. From my own experience, if I am purchasing a used Guild, whether it comes with a pickup or not is of little importance to me, as I will likely end up installing my own preferred amplification system anyway. Translation: If I want *that* guitar, I will purchase it with or without the pickup. On the off chance my favorite amplification system is already in place, I may put a premium on it and pay more.

Do we know if the undersaddle pickups change the original tone at all just by being between the bridge saddle and the guitar?

Imperceptibly. There is so much pressure exerted by the strings on the saddle which is then transferred via the pickup to the bridge that the difference in tone between a saddle / pickup / bridge and saddle / bridge configuration is something requiring instruments other than ears to distinguish acoustically. I am sure it would be possible to 'muddy' the tone by having an ill-fitting saddle or using a poorly-designed pickup, but I have never encountered such a situation.

Does the value of the guitar change if it has an after market pickup installed? If so, how? Up? Down?

At the very least, a quality install of a quality pickup should assist in retaining the guitar's value for all but the collectors or acoustic 'purists' who may consider any altered guitar to be of less value than the original. For resale value, there will likely be a greater purchasing audience who will value the presence of the pickup.

Comments?

I have LR Baggs iMix systems on all three of my jumbo Guilds. I do not record my guitars using pickups, but rather with microphones. I perform with pickups in my guitars in front of a microphone. The mic more accurately captures the essence of the acoustic tone and amplifies it. To achieve higher amplified volume without feedback and to allow for the successful use of effects such as chorus and phase shifting I rely on the additional pickups. Technically, a simple passive (no battery) piezo under-saddle pickup could do the job, but I still hear that infamous Barcus Berry 'quack' in the low cost solutions that I dislike enough to spend a lot more money on a little better sound.