to DTAR or not to DTAR

ac1dt3st

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Sorry for the rapid succession of posts, but I'm in active research mode right now, and looking to buy, hopefully soon. I notice many of the newer Guild dreads and jumbos come with an optional DTAR setup.

Here's my situation. I currently own three Guild acoustics, and I purchased a Fishman Rare Earth pickup that I share amongst them. Not optimal, but I don't play many places that require amplification. I also own an SWR Strawberry Blonde amplifier that I use when necessary.

What is your honest opinion of the DTAR pickup system, and if I buy new, is it worth the extra money to get that option installed even if I don't "plug in" very often at the moment? Should I just slide in the Fishman when I need it, like with my other Guilds, or is it just better to have the built in DTAR when I need it...?

Reading through the archives, I've heard some refer to "the dreaded DTAR", and found that others praise the sound. so... which is it? ;)
 

gilded

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I like 'em, but you ought to know what they are.

Start with the proposition that every pickup system has advantages and disadvantages.

The D-TAR Lock'n'Load is a piezo pickup that is combined with an onboard preamp, volume and tone controls, and a proprietary
voltage power booster that turns two small AA batteries into '18 volts of fury'. The result is that you get a piezo pickup with very little 'quack', especially when you beat on the strings for your 'Big Finish'. Another way of saying that would be 'lots of clean headroom, without the tinny piezo sound'.

Of course, you have to want a piezo sound in the first place. I don't know if that's an advantage or a disadvantage. Depends on the player, I guess.

For me, the main disadvantage is that the L'n'L system is heavy. Let's say it weighs a pound, maybe more. That's an extra pound hanging around your neck for a whole gig. Some people mind, some people don't.

My friend Scratch used to own the D-TAR equipped D55 I currently own. Scratch thought it was way too heavy and 'gave it a good gettin' rid of'. I can definitely feel the weight, but I've played about 20-25 gigs with that guitar and don't mind it.

There is one adjustment I would make on the D-TAR L'n'L model if I were you. They have couple of switches on the unit to boost the bass and the treble. As delivered from Tacoma (I don't know about the new ones from Hartford), the switches are in boost position. It made for a very bass heavy sound for me, along with significant amounts of feedback. I had my luthier take the system out and readjust everything to flat (or nearly flat). Now, it's fine. Actually, I was already adjusting the trebles and bass to my satisfaction with a Baggs Paracoustic DI, but the settings were just blowing my fragile '56 year old mind, so I went to the source of the problem.

I know why they adjust them that way- it's an attempt to treat the symptoms from most sound reinforcement sources where the bass and treble are not as prominent as the mids. If you are playing through a Strawberry Blonde, you won't have that problem, because you'll already have lots of bass, right?

So, if you need/want a really fine piezo sound, you might like the D-TAR. If you play at relatively low volume and/or do 'solo stuff' and don't need to cut through a band, there are many other rabbit trails available to hop down!

Like they used to say in Detroit, 'There's an arse for every seat!' Same goes for pickups.
 

ac1dt3st

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wow, thanks gilded. that was an incredibly informative reply. all the info i needed. since i normally play solo, or coffee shop with my wife singing, i never need to punch through a band. if i ever get to that point (again), i can consider my options. if i go new, i will skip the DTAR.

and, i certainly don't need an extra pound of hardware around "just because", especially when i can affix my Fishman in two minutes or so.

i guess the one remaining factor is... while doing my research ;) on LTG before making my own post, someone had mentioned they thought the DTAR helped to actually *balance* the weight in some models. however, i can always just toss a rock in the body. (kidding, of course.)

i have to believe that the guitars would be manufactured reasonably balanced without requiring additional hardware.

and finally... yes, plenty of low end in the Strawberry Blonde. don't need any additional help there. ;)

thanks again!
 

fungusyoung

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ac1dt3st said:
since i normally play solo, or coffee shop with my wife singing, i never need to punch through a band.


Not sure if you need a pickup for those situations, but if you do I'd strongly recommend a K&K Pure Western Mini. Non-invasive, under the saddle, no quack, no batteries & the most natural/woody tones that are as close to your natural acoustic's sound as anything I've heard. And, they're reasonable.

You can do a search here on them if you want more info... lots of others use them with success. At this point, I own 4 pretty different acoustics & all of them have K&K Pure Westerns. 90% of the time I just plug them direct into the soundboard with great results, but I also have an LR Baggs Para D/I if any tone shaping is required.
 

West R Lee

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gilded said:
I like 'em, but you ought to know what they are.

Start with the proposition that every pickup system has advantages and disadvantages.

The D-TAR Lock'n'Load is a piezo pickup that is combined with an onboard preamp, volume and tone controls, and a proprietary
voltage power booster that turns two small AA batteries into '18 volts of fury'. The result is that you get a piezo pickup with very little 'quack', especially when you beat on the strings for your 'Big Finish'. Another way of saying that would be 'lots of clean headroom, without the tinny piezo sound'.

Of course, you have to want a piezo sound in the first place. I don't know if that's an advantage or a disadvantage. Depends on the player, I guess.

For me, the main disadvantage is that the L'n'L system is heavy. Let's say it weighs a pound, maybe more. That's an extra pound hanging around your neck for a whole gig. Some people mind, some people don't.

My friend Scratch used to own the D-TAR equipped D55 I currently own. Scratch thought it was way too heavy and 'gave it a good gettin' rid of'. I can definitely feel the weight, but I've played about 20-25 gigs with that guitar and don't mind it.

There is one adjustment I would make on the D-TAR L'n'L model if I were you. They have couple of switches on the unit to boost the bass and the treble. As delivered from Tacoma (I don't know about the new ones from Hartford), the switches are in boost position. It made for a very bass heavy sound for me, along with significant amounts of feedback. I had my luthier take the system out and readjust everything to flat (or nearly flat). Now, it's fine. Actually, I was already adjusting the trebles and bass to my satisfaction with a Baggs Paracoustic DI, but the settings were just blowing my fragile '56 year old mind, so I went to the source of the problem.

I know why they adjust them that way- it's an attempt to treat the symptoms from most sound reinforcement sources where the bass and treble are not as prominent as the mids. If you are playing through a Strawberry Blonde, you won't have that problem, because you'll already have lots of bass, right?

So, if you need/want a really fine piezo sound, you might like the D-TAR. If you play at relatively low volume and/or do 'solo stuff' and don't need to cut through a band, there are many other rabbit trails available to hop down!

Like they used to say in Detroit, 'There's an arse for every seat!' Same goes for pickups.



Harry took the words right out of my mouth.
:shock: :wink:
West
 

chazmo

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fungusyoung said:
ac1dt3st said:
since i normally play solo, or coffee shop with my wife singing, i never need to punch through a band.


Not sure if you need a pickup for those situations, but if you do I'd strongly recommend a K&K Pure Western Mini. Non-invasive, under the saddle, no quack, no batteries & the most natural/woody tones that are as close to your natural acoustic's sound as anything I've heard. And, they're reasonable.

You can do a search here on them if you want more info... lots of others use them with success. At this point, I own 4 pretty different acoustics & all of them have K&K Pure Westerns. 90% of the time I just plug them direct into the soundboard with great results, but I also have an LR Baggs Para D/I if any tone shaping is required.
I like the K&K Pure Western Mini too. For clarification, it's not an under-saddle transducer; rather it's a 3 pickup system which is mounted onto the bridge plate (i.e., inside the guitar box). It's a passive system, but you can also get an on-board pre-amp. Personally, I think the external pre-amp is a better idea.
 

Dr Izza Plumber

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DTARS have probably been the detractor regarding My rejection of the pick up equipped, Tacoma Guilds.

They may sound OK, but personally, I think it was a major mistake by the company to chose that particular electronic device. An LR Baggs active IBeam, would have been a more definitive choice for a pick up.
 

West R Lee

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The thing I don't like about them is that you have this monstrosity hanging out of the arse of your guitar.

West
 

gilded

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West R Lee said:
The thing I don't like about them is that you have this monstrosity hanging out of the arse of your guitar.

West
I'm beating Grammy to it...............DTARRHOID!!
 

ac1dt3st

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southernGuild said:
:D I enjoyed reading and learning from this one.....Thanks guys for posting! :D
no doubt; this community rocks! ;)

and by the way, i have just ordered a brand new Guild! sans DTAR. and i did decide to go new, since i have three vintage guitars, four with the Gibson. i'm not going to spill the beans just yet, but i'll be sure to post info and photos when i bring it home, hopefully this week.
 

kostask

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ac1dt3st said:
Sorry for the rapid succession of posts, but I'm in active research mode right now, and looking to buy, hopefully soon. I notice many of the newer Guild dreads and jumbos come with an optional DTAR setup.

Here's my situation. I currently own three Guild acoustics, and I purchased a Fishman Rare Earth pickup that I share amongst them. Not optimal, but I don't play many places that require amplification. I also own an SWR Strawberry Blonde amplifier that I use when necessary.

What is your honest opinion of the DTAR pickup system, and if I buy new, is it worth the extra money to get that option installed even if I don't "plug in" very often at the moment? Should I just slide in the Fishman when I need it, like with my other Guilds, or is it just better to have the built in DTAR when I need it...?

Reading through the archives, I've heard some refer to "the dreaded DTAR", and found that others praise the sound. so... which is it? ;)

There is a lot of bias against UST, generally, and in the past it has been well deserved. A lot of the previous generation USTs make acoustic guitars sound like they are equipped with rubber bands (wast a lot of people refer to as "quack"). THe DTAR pickups don't have that issue, as long as you are finger picking, or strumming at somewhere below "I'm trying to see if I can break the strings" level.

I don't really like the Lock'n'Load system that comes factory installed, due to its size (I don't feel comfortable with the size of the end pin hole) or the weight. I do like the standard DTAR system that has the internal battery holder; it doesn't weigh any more than other active pickups, and I do think the DTAR system sounds better than any of the other UST pickups. Soundboard transducer type pickups (iBeam, K & K) are better at lower sound levels, but they are also feedback prone at medium to high volume situations. Only you can decide where, and in what environment it will be used in. Please also note that there is now a multisource version of the DTAR tha incorporates an isolated microphone, but this isn't available as a factory installed option. This would allow for a better sound in lower volume situations, and the blend between microphone and UST can be adjusted as desired.

It should also be mentioned that the external "sound processors" (DTAR Mama Bear, Fishman Aura series) need to have a fairly clean signal (ie. string vibration vs. soundboard vibration) to work properly, eliminating the Soundboard Transducers as an option if you want to use them. If you use one of these processors, the combination of the DTAR pickup system, and for example the DTAR Mama Bear will give the best amplified acoustic sound currently possible. The DTAR multi-source would have its blend control moved to 100% UST.
The processors can also be used with your Rare Earth, but won't sound as good as with a UST.

My recommendation is to pass on the factory installed DTAR, and continue to use your Rare Earth. Should you decide to get a permanent pickup, I would recommend that DTAR multi-source, which will allows the use of the guitar in both lower volume and higher volume situations.

Kostas
 

chazmo

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I think the multi-source D-TAR is an interesting suggestion. I should mention that Martin is using this system on the Grand J guitar which is a Guild F-512 clone... This multi-source has a very cool printed circuit board with embedded microphone that works in concert with the UST. I've heard good things from the owners of the Grand J about this, and the only issue is where to mount the battery (Martin mounts it on the inside of the guitar back - yech!)

http://d-tar.com/
 

gilded

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kostas,

First of all, thanks so much for your clear and cogent explanations of what the various types of pickups do. I am in your debt.

Secondly, do you have experience with the DTAR USTs and the DTAR Mama Bear, Solstice and Equinox preamps? If you do, I sure would like to hear about it.

Somehow the idea of the Mama Bear doesn't seem to do a lot for me. I would like for my UST-equipped guitar to sound as good as it can sound as opposed to using it as a blank canvas for 'other guitar sounds' (though maybe I am guilty of 'errant thinking' and don't get the Big Mama Bear Picture).

I do find myself drawn to the idea of the DTAR Equinox para/eq notch, but don't know if it would work any better with my DTAR Lock'n'Load system than my Baggs Paracoustic DI. Again, any experience you may have had or even heard about with these units would be appreciated.


Thanks, gilded
 

hideglue

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Just to add to the already confusing & crowded field of pickup choices; Sunrise pickups...as of this writing, they're as good as it gets***

***IMHO -- of course
 

gilded

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Well, 'glue,

I guess that's why I own one, too!!! Sunrise makes a mighty good pickup!
 

kostask

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gilded said:
kostas,

First of all, thanks so much for your clear and cogent explanations of what the various types of pickups do. I am in your debt.

Secondly, do you have experience with the DTAR USTs and the DTAR Mama Bear, Solstice and Equinox preamps? If you do, I sure would like to hear about it.

Somehow the idea of the Mama Bear doesn't seem to do a lot for me. I would like for my UST-equipped guitar to sound as good as it can sound as opposed to using it as a blank canvas for 'other guitar sounds' (though maybe I am guilty of 'errant thinking' and don't get the Big Mama Bear Picture).

I do find myself drawn to the idea of the DTAR Equinox para/eq notch, but don't know if it would work any better with my DTAR Lock'n'Load system than my Baggs Paracoustic DI. Again, any experience you may have had or even heard about with these units would be appreciated.


Thanks, gilded

I worked with one of my luthier friends on helping him pick a pickup system that he could offer to his customers, most of which are very, very demanding bluegrass pickers. After about a year of research, mostly on the Internet, and having read a lot of Rick Turner's justification for the DTAR pickup line, and the throught processes behind the 18V preamp, I made the recommendation that he carry the DTAR line. While a lot of people seem to think that DTAR is full of hot air, the principles behind what Rick Turner has come up with are rock solid. I have witnessed the reaction of 3 installations of the DTAR first hand, and ALL were very impressed. In one case, this being the most difficult customer (in terms of demanding nothing but the best amplified tone possible), he had gone through Fishmans, iBeams, K & Ks, and Highlander pickup systems, and will now only play guitars with the DTAR system. He has DTARs in his Martin OM-45, D-28, D-18, and two Tippin handbuilts. Before he got the DTARs put into his Tippins, he actually called Bill Tippin, and was told that this was the recommended pickup for his handbuilts. He also ended up buying a Mama Bear, and will not perform without the DTAR pickup and Mama Bear. I personally believe that DTAR has made major strides in the elimination of piezo quack, and has made the UST a viable pickup choice.

I do also have first hand experience with the Mama Bear, but not with the Aura. To be honest, the effect is pretty astonishing. In my case, I have heard it played with a DTAR pickup system, a Takamine with its built in, unique pickup system (Palethetic, or something like that), and an Acoustic Bronze magnetic pickup. We hooked the guitars up to the Mama Bear, the 1/4" output of the Mama Bear going to a JBL Eon 15. We started by playing the guitar in bypass mode for a few songs, and then took some time to set up the Mama Bear. The input type should be set up properly, to get best effect. Then we played the same songs with the Mama Bear on, usually with the blend at 40-60%. Its sort of funny, but we didn't really notice a huge effect on the sound when the songs were playing. So we had the same songs playing while switching the Mama Bear on and off. We did notice it then. When the songs were played with the Mama Bear, it sounded very real, three dimensional, and very, very real. When the Mama Bear was switched off, the sound just sort of collapsed, or imploded. It went back to being a very two dimensional sound, and you could tell that is was an amplified acoustic. This happened with all pickups. The output models don't have a night and day effect, but you can hear differences between a small bodied parlor, and a rosewood dread. It is harded to hear the difference between a rosewood dread and a mahogany dread, and this did vary some with the guitar/pickup used. As DTAR goes out if its way to say, this isn't a modeler (although it can do some extremely good emulations, see below), it is designed to add back some of the wood/air resonances that are part of a normal acoustic guitar. I truly believe that anybody who wants to amplify their guitar, and get a good sound out if it, should try a Mama Bear. It may not be for everybody, but I'd be willing to bet that the majority of serious players will be very impressed, and wouldn't doubt that a lot of them would be buying their own unit.

I would have liked to have heard the Aura and the Mama Bear head to head, but I don't know anybody who owns an Aura (the original one, with the downloadable images), and the use of images by the Aura ( the original one, and the new Aura Spectrum DI) has both pros and cons, in my mind. The pro are that it potentially has the most accurate sound possible; the con is that you need to have an image for your guitar. Many have tried using an image of a gutar that is closest to the one their own guitar, and success varies, from what I have read. This may not be an issue if you own a Martin D-28, but probably will be if you own a Guild DV-6, as an example.

One of the most spectacular things to hear is the models for the Tri-Cone (Dobro). Set it to 100% Mama Bear, grab a slide, and you'd think you were playing a National Tri-Cone. The archtop and gypsy jazz emulations are also almost perfect.

I don't have any experience with the Solstice or Equinox, all of the reviews have been positive, but the DTAR pickup/Mama Bear combination I have heard in real life was going through the Bose L1, so the Solstice/Equinox was not required. The Mama Bear has both 1/4" (variable) and XLR (fixed) outs.

Kostas
 

gilded

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kostas,

Thanks, I guess I ought to just 'man up' and buy a Mama Bear. By the way, kostas, I'm going to send you a PM.

gilded
 

count savage

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Kostask, thanks for taking the time to give us some valuable information. I can only report on the D-Tar from my limited experience. I ordered the Takoma F512 with the D-Tar from the factory. I tested Guilds with and without the pick-up to make sure I didn't hear a difference-- I didn't -- and am extremely happy with the sound of the D-Tar through an amp! In fact, if and when I get back out in public on a regular basis I will definitely buy another D-Tar for my Larrivee D-03R six-string. I like the simplicity of the system and the ease of access to both the controls in the sound hole and the battery in the tailpiece. I envision the D-Tar giving me an additional sound source when recording myself, which is primarily what I do these days. Coupled with something like the new Peavey Vypyr 30 I recently got for electrics, well, the sound possibilities are mind-boggling. My musical experience includes both lots of live performing, touring and recording in high and low end studios. So anyway, I'm pretty aware of what sounds good and what sounds 'right' from recording, mixing, etc., and I enthusiastically recommend the D-Tar those who are uncertain.
 
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