The Fender Years

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New to this forum (posted NGD earlier today, and by now my fingertips need a break!)

Can anyone fill me in on the Fender years? I had always lusted for a Guild, but for many years they had seemed to disappear.

My new M20 is from Oxnard.
 

chazmo

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Oh, my... Big question, Doug...

In any case, I had the same experience as you. Back in 2007 when I found a garish Guild 12-string guitar in my local music store's acoustic room, I pulled it off the wall and was completely blown away. That's when I discovered that this guitar was made in the US (Tacoma, WA), and Guild was still alive. So, yeah, I think lots of people lost track of Guild, but they were never really gone.

In time (the 2000s), Fender introduced overseas production of various new and old models in both Mexico and Asia.

Anyway, welcome aboard and I think your question will be answered over time. It's a complicated timeline. Enjoy your new M-20!!!
 

Cougar

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Can anyone fill me in on the Fender years?
My Corona-built JF30-12 has the Fender decal on the back of the headstock. All I know is, Fender must have kept its hands out of the design and production* of Guilds and let Guild "do its thing," which allowed for remarkable consistency throughout the years and changes in plant locations and owners.
___________________
* Well, I guess Guild could use Fender's equipment. Corona was, after all, Fender's shop. AIUI.

gjf365.jpg
 

JohnW63

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I'll let the more versed historians fill you in on all the changes in Guild over the years. All I can say is that , in my view, Fender would buy companies, but not do any decent marketing while they own them. It's like Fender wanted to collect companies, but not really try to grow those companies. Ovation fans will tell you about that from the time Fender owned them. On the good side, Fender didn't try to change how the guitars were made, no matter the location of the factory they moved the production to. Westerly -> Tacoma -> Corona -> New Hartford. ( I think I have the Tacoma -> Corona order correct. ) Of course the Tacoma brand of guitars shut down under Fenders watch, if I recall clearly.
 

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I think Westerly built some of their best guitars during the Fender years, and certainly the biggest variety it seems.
 

adorshki

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My Corona-built JF30-12 has the Fender decal on the back of the headstock. All I know is, Fender must have kept its hands out of the design and production* of Guilds and let Guild "do its thing," which allowed for remarkable consistency throughout the years and changes in plant locations and owners.
___________________
* Well, I guess Guild could use Fender's equipment. Corona was, after all, Fender's shop. AIUI.
Actually Fender built a dedicated assembly area (building?) for Guild because flat-tops had never been built in Corona.

They also brought in some tooling and machinery from Westerly like the archback press, and installed a state-of the-art spray booth to be able to spray NCL in compliance with California's ever-more restrictive air quality regs.

Westerly -> Tacoma -> Corona -> New Hartford. ( I think I have the Tacoma -> Corona order correct. )
Nope, Corona '02-'04 and Tacoma '05-'08. ;)

New to this forum (posted NGD earlier today, and by now my fingertips need a break!)

Can anyone fill me in on the Fender years? I had always lusted for a Guild, but for many years they had seemed to disappear.

My new M20 is from Oxnard.
HI Dougling, welcome aboard!

Fender's purchase of Guild was finalized in November of '95 while they were still at Westerly, and as Cougar suspected, they did largely practice a "hands-off" approach to the actual manufacturing process although they did take some measures to improve QC:

Several years ago member Hideglue, who worked in Westerly, mentioned "Guild's QC reached a zenith under Fender".

Some folks were a little riled buy this, thinking he meant the Fender-era guitars were better, and he had to take pains to explain that what he meant was that Fender did some things like instituting checklists to ensure no QC steps were overlooked, but not that the guitars themselves were therefore better.

In '97 Fender also opened up the Guild Nashville Custom shop which specialized in even higher-end builds than Westerly could allocate resources for, as well as special editions and custom orders. In our host GAD's Guild Catalogs page more in-depth info about the shop can be found, in the Guild Gallery magazines in the '90's section: https://www.gad.net/Blog/guild-guitar-catalogs/.

Westerly itself was a very old building with ventilation consisting of opening the skylights. Not a great foundation to start climate-controlled manufacturing for even greater consistency in the finished product. Also, Rhode Island was starting to implement air quality regs similar to California's and that would likely have doomed Westerly's ability to spray NCL without expensive retrofitting of the building itself.

Fender decided it would be better to move Guild to Corona, most likely a more cost-effective solution than trying to "fix" Westerly. So Westerly was shut down in August of '01 although finished inventory was still being shipped as late as November, like my F65ce.

Corona's first official production year was '02, and that's when they started hitting some bumps in the road: A high rate of finish blemishes early on, and negative critical assessment of the build quality there.

Former member Jay Pilzer wrote an article about it in Vintage Guitar:

Once they got over their learning curve, the guitars were just fine. Coronas have actually aged well and many members love theirs, myself included.

But, during that time Fender acquired the Tacoma Guitar Company and decided to move Guild manufacturing to Tacoma Washington.
So Corona was shut down in summer of '04 and moved to Tacoma. Unsold inventory as well as warranty return and "B" stock was liquidated through an outfit called MIRC.

MIRC in turn undertook to ensure none of those guitars could later be submitted to Fender for warranty claim by obliterating the s/n's, and in turn sold 'em to dealers, with no warranty, even though many of 'em may have had no actual manufacturing defects, or only finish blems.

The flood of cheap unwarranted guitars gave Guild's rep a black eye and alienated dealers struggling to sell warrantied "A" stock against 'em.

But Fender did continue investing in Guild R&D and also brought out the GAD (Guild Acoustic Design) line of MIC guitars in spring of '04.

The fruits of the R&D investment were seen in Tacoma, '05-08. By all accounts Tacoma also signaled a return to lighter build styles.

But, during that time Fender acquired Ovation Guitars and decided to move Guild manufacturing to Ovation's facility in New Hartford Connecticut. Never one to learn a lesson the first time around, Fender let good ol' MIRC handle the liquidation chores once again with results surprisingly similar to the first round's from Corona.

I know 2 local dealers who dropped Guild at that point, having lost confidence in the brand itself.

In New Hartford Fender decided to implement a "low volume/high quality" business model and attempted to re-make Guild into a sort of "entry-level boutique" brand. They decided they no longer wanted it to be just another one of the dozens of brands on the wall at a Guitar Center.

This was when the complaints about the difficulty of just finding one to play started to arise. New Hartford's output was very low, with output estimated at substantially less than 5000 units/year.

Experiencing financial woes of their own, Fender finally decided to throw in the towel in 2014 and sold Guild to Cordoba Music Group.

Cordoba built a dedicated manufacturing plant for the flat-tops in Oxnard CA and took 2 years to get it into production due to California's byzantine regulatory processes. (Spraying NCL was NOT actually ever a problem, it was one of the first approvals obtained. Electric power turned out to be a major bug-a-boo)

SO: 4 plants with low output in 13 years, with around 3 accumulated years of no production, now you know why they're so hard to find in a brick-and mortar store.

I'd thank you for persevering but I bet the M20's reward enough.. :cool:
 
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Stuball48

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I think Westerly built some of their best guitars during the Fender years, and certainly the biggest variety it seems.
I agree Dread. I have owned three or four from late 90s and 2000. Still have one, maybe two, and quality and looks both get Blue Ribbons from me.
 
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Actually Fender built a dedicated assembly area (building?) for Guild because flat-tops had never been built in Corona.

They also brought in some tooling and machinery from Westerly like the archback press, and installed a state-of the-art spray booth to be able to spray NCL in compliance with California's ever-more restrictive air quality regs.


Nope, Corona '02-'04 and Tacoma '05-'08. ;)


HI Dougling, welcome aboard!

Fender's purchase of Guild was finalized in November of '95 while they were still at Westerly, and as Cougar suspected, they did largely practice a "hands-off" approach to the actual manufacturing process although they did take some measures to improve QC:

Several years ago member Hideglue, who worked in Westerly, mentioned "Guild's QC reached a zenith under Fender".

Some folks were a little riled buy this, thinking he meant the Fender-era guitars were better, and he had to take pains to explain that what he meant was that Fender did some things like instituting checklists to ensure no QC steps were overlooked, but not that the guitars themselves were therefore better.

In '97 Fender also opened up the Guild Nashville Custom shop which specialized in even higher-end builds than Westerly could allocate resources for, as well as special editions and custom orders. In our host GAD's Guild Catalogs page more in-depth info about the shop can be found, in the Guild Gallery magazines in the '90's section: https://www.gad.net/Blog/guild-guitar-catalogs/.

Westerly itself was a very old building with ventilation consisting of opening the skylights. Not a great foundation to start climate-controlled manufacturing for even greater consistency in the finished product. Also, Rhode Island was starting to implement air quality regs similar to California's and that would likely have doomed Westerly's ability to spray NCL without expensive retrofitting of the building itself.

Fender decided it would be better to move Guild to Corona, most likely a more cost-effective solution than trying to "fix" Westerly. So Westerly was shut down in August of '01 although finished inventory was still being shipped as late as November, like my F65ce.

Corona's first official production year was '02, and that's when they started hitting some bumps in the road: A high rate of finish blemishes early on, and negative critical assessment of the build quality there.

Former member Jay Pilzer wrote an article about it in Vintage Guitar:

Once they got over their learning curve, the guitars were just fine. Coronas have actually aged well and many members love theirs, myself included.

But, during that time Fender acquired the Tacoma Guitar Company and decided to move Guild manufacturing to Tacoma Washington.
So Corona was shut down in summer of '04 and moved to Tacoma. Unsold inventory as well as warranty return and "B" stock was liquidated through an outfit called MIRC.

MIRC in turn undertook to ensure none of those guitars could later be submitted to Fender for warranty claim by obliterating the s/n's, and in turn sold 'em to dealers, with no warranty, even though many of 'em may have had no actual manufacturing defects, or only finish blems.

The flood of cheap unwarranted guitars gave Guild's rep a black eye and alienated dealers struggling to sell warrantied "A" stock against 'em.

But Fender did continue investing in Guild R&D and also brought out the GAD (Guild Acoustic Design) line of MIC guitars in spring of '04.

The fruits of the R&D investment were seen in Tacoma, '05-08. By all accounts Tacoma also signaled a return to lighter build styles.

But, during that time Fender acquired Ovation Guitars and decided to move Guild manufacturing Ovation's facility in New Hartford Connecticut. Never one to learn a lesson the first time around, Fender let good ol' MIRC handle the liquidation chores once again with results similar to the first round's from Corona.

I know 2 local dealers who dropped Guild at that point, having lost confidence in the brand itself.

In New Hartford Fender decided to implement a "low volume/high quality" business model and attempted to re-make Guild into a sort of "entry-level boutique" brand. They decided they no longer wanted it to be just another one of the dozens of brands on the wall at a Guitar Center.

This was when the complaints about the difficulty of just finding one to play started to arise. New Hartford's output was very low, with output estimated at substantially less than 5000 units/year.

Experiencing financial woes of their own, Fender finally decided to throw in the towel in 2014 and sold Guild to Cordoba Music Group.

Cordoba built a dedicated manufacturing plant for the flat-tops in Oxnard CA and took 2 years to get it into production due to California's byzantine regulatory processes. (Spraying NCL was NOT actually ever a problem, it was one of the first approvals obtained. Electric power turned out to be a major bug-a-boo)

SO: 4 plants with low output in 13 years, with around 3 accumulated years of no production, now you know why they're so hard to find in a brick-and mortar store.

I'd thank you for persevering but I bet the M20's reward enough.. :cool:
 
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Great response. I knew about the wandering factories but you have explained how quality was consistent yet dealers lost confidence. I was happy to find a brick and mortar with inventory, but feel a little guilty to have snatched it away from a shopper who may have just wandered in. Not my problem, though. Sweetwater was out of stock and I'm not really fond of the others. Nice to get the shopping done and get back to playing.
 

fronobulax

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I was happy to find a brick and mortar with inventory

The dealer network suffered during Fender's stewardship and hasn't really recovered. In addition production volume overall declined so there was less product to place in stores. The social and economic forces that make it harder and harder to walk into a retail store and "try before you buy" or do A/B comparisons didn't just hit Fender.
 

JohnW63

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There was always a place on the floor for Fender amps and guitars, so why worry about some other brand not having a space? I suppose that might be harsh, but maybe not.
 

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The dealer network suffered during Fender's stewardship and hasn't really recovered. In addition production volume overall declined so there was less product to place in stores. The social and economic forces that make it harder and harder to walk into a retail store and "try before you buy" or do A/B comparisons didn't just hit Fender.
Not sure on whose watch it happened, but Howard Herbert (Philly music store owner) told me that Guild had raised the inventory buy requirements for eight guitars to a considerably higher amount, so a lot of dealers stopped carrying the brand. The same thing happened to Gibson dealers around here. They had to buy a pallets of Gibsons, then the were forced to buy an equal number of Epiphones. Those stores aren't around anymore...
 

adorshki

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Not sure on whose watch it happened, but Howard Herbert (Philly music store owner) told me that Guild had raised the inventory buy requirements for eight guitars to a considerably higher amount, so a lot of dealers stopped carrying the brand. The same thing happened to Gibson dealers around here. They had to buy a pallets of Gibsons, then the were forced to buy an equal number of Epiphones. Those stores aren't around anymore...
Yeah, that was another complicating factor fo availability. I know Fender practiced that approach, so suspect it was implemented under Fender's watch and it did serve to squeeze out small guys who simply didn't have space or couldn't afford to carry that much inventory.

It was also complicated by Fender's policy of requiring purchase of a mix across product lines, a dealer couldn't elect to buy and stock only the US-built Guild line, for example.

In true ironic poetic justice, by the time New Hartford was going into production, Guitar Center dropped 'em because the anticipated output volume wouldn't meet GC's requirements (!) o_O

I believe it was around that time that Fender restructured their purchasing requirements, and irony begetting irony, GC, Fender's single biggest customer, began to look for ways to restructure their looming unsupportable debt load. And if they went down, it was a pretty good bet they'd take Fender with 'em. Undoubtedly GC's problems dragged on Fender.

Fender even planned their own IPO but nobody came so they dropped it. And so they were reduced to selling the family jewels: Guild.

The one line of continuity in all this? The GAD line, produced at Grand Reward Education and Entertainment continuously from '03-'15 and replaced by Cordoba's "Westerly Collection" guitars produced at that same factory.

The only thing I have against MIC guitars is that an hour after you play one you're hungry again.
 
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fronobulax

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Not sure on whose watch it happened, but Howard Herbert (Philly music store owner) told me that Guild had raised the inventory buy requirements for eight guitars to a considerably higher amount, so a lot of dealers stopped carrying the brand. The same thing happened to Gibson dealers around here. They had to buy a pallets of Gibsons, then the were forced to buy an equal number of Epiphones. Those stores aren't around anymore...

About a decade ago my Guild dealer talked about what a PITA Fender had been. They had minimum stocking requirements for their brands but sometimes you could combine brands to meet the requirements and sometimes you couldn't and the rules seemed to change every time the local salesperson for a brand changed. If he could have dealt with one person for all the FMIC products he would have been happier. Guild changed the stocking requirements so he could pick which lines/factories he wanted to stock from (New Hartford, Mexico, Korea, China) and still call his store a Guild dealership. At that time in the market, the Arcos line flew off his walls but he had GADs that had been hanging for a couple years so not having to order any more but still having access to the other lines was great for him.
 

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Another factor in all of this was the monster that became internet shopping. I’m sure Fender, along with everyone else, was tripping over themselves in an effort to figure out their place in the developing online market.

In 2000, Gibson’s acoustic division was, under Ren’s watchful eye, hitting it’s stride with some stellar instruments coming off of a rather low production line. They also had an extensive dealer network, which included small mom & pop operations. All of that changed in 2001, when they entered into a partnership with Guitar Center & Musician’s Friend (as well as a host of other online retailers). A decision had clearly been made to focus on big-box & internet sales, and ramp up production, especially on the electric side. In the process, those purchasing quotas were ordered, and scores of dealers were forced to drop out of the network - including some who had been selling Gibsons for thirty or more years.

So back to Fender. All of the many seemingly crazy fits of decision making regarding Guild seemed to start at this exact same time - the dawn of the 2000s, and the looming juggernaut of internet sales. It’s as if the corporate bean counter’s brains were all collectively exploding in unison while staring into the image of a smiley Amazon logo!
 

adorshki

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Another factor in all of this was the monster that became internet shopping. I’m sure Fender, along with everyone else, was tripping over themselves in an effort to figure out their place in the developing online market.
In fact, early in New Hartford period, Fender explicitly said they didn't want to go the internet vendor route with Guild USA, as part of the repositioning strategy.

They wanted to cultivate brick and mortar dealers with experience in selling the even higher-end builds they planned for New Hartford.

It didn't seem to work too well.
 

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In fact, early in New Hartford period, Fender explicitly said they didn't want to go the internet vendor route with Guild USA, as part of the repositioning strategy.
They wanted to cultivate brick and mortar dealers with experience in selling the even higher-end builds they planned for New Hartford.
It didn't seem to work too well.
During the time I’m talking about in the early 2000s, I think Fender sold it’s soul in the same manner as Gibson to the big-box/internet sales format, as they seemed to be fighting for who had the most ad space in GC/MF catalogs. But their total focus was on Fender branded products, as well as Gretcsh. I don’t know how many years went by without a single ad for a Guild product that ever crossed my path. Corona happened, Tacoma happened, and still nary a peep from Fender to let you know that Guild was even out there. An occasional catalog is hardly a marketing strategy!

Indeed, Fender did maintain a stronger presence within locally owned stores during the decade & didn’t dump most of them like Gibson (a decision that was eventually reversed). But by the time Fender got to New Hartford, even if they had good intentions, they still seemed to lack the vision and/or desire to develop & actively pursue a serious marketing plan for USA-made Guilds. The amazing thing is, that from Westerly to Corona to Tacoma to NH & the Nashville custom shop, Fender continued spending the money required to build consistently outstanding instruments.

Now I readily admit that I say all of the above from the comfort of my armchair quarterback position, and perhaps I missed some important pieces to the puzzle. But if Fender had wanted me to get up out of my armchair to seek out a USA-made Guild, their marketing signals from the sideline were total confusion!
 
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