Simplify simplify simplify

[Charlie Bernstein]

Just grouching.

I'm in a four-piece acoustic band where everyone (but me) wants to amplify everything, even for practices, and where one guy insists we prepare song lists for practices.

For practices! In one of my pre-covid bands, we didn't even make set lists. We'd just go, "Hey, let's play . . . ." We played pubs and festivals, and no one in the audience complained.

We have another guy who keeps bringing in songs with lots of changes. Which means we have to practice them at home and memorize them. FTS! There are so many great, great, great songs that just go around and have just one or two or three or four chords.

I mean, how hard does fun have to be?

 

[dreadnut]

We use song lists for our gigs.

 

[beecee]

I agree with you 100%, (although I do think you should all try to be in tune), but I am envious. I'd love to find 1 or 2 folks in my area that I could play with who like my kind of music for acoustic.

The guys I know either play their own, (horrible), stuff ad nauseum or are Rush/AC-DC wannabees.

 

[Charlie Bernstein]

We use song lists for our gigs.

Yeah, me, too, usually. But for practices?! Seems a little OCD, doesn't it?

 

[Charlie Bernstein]

I agree with you 100%, (although I do think you should all try to be in tune), but I am envious. I'd love to find 1 or 2 folks in my area that I could play with who like my kind of music for acoustic.

The guys I know either play their own, (horrible), stuff ad nauseum or are Rush/AC-DC wannabees.

I'm lucky. I've managed to get away from playing with people whose music I hate. It's taken some doing.

 

[Stagefright]

The audience is the first to know if you, as a group, are having fun. They can smell the fear of sudden chord/key changes. Keep it simple or practice until it is simple.

I could see a list of tunes that you have mastered versus those that need more practice. I guess it becomes a question of whether you are practicing or jamming.

Mastered could be the redefined as "fun to play"

 

[crank]

Most bands I have been in use song list for practices. That way we practice what we need to practice.

Currently in a jam band that only gigs once or twice a year. We have a short list of more complex songs we are working one but most of our sessions are spent jamming. I find it more fun and interesting to spend some time working shit out and it gives me something to focus on when practicing at home.

I remember a classic rock band I was in about 12 or so years ago. We gigged a lot in bars/clubs. One time we had a big festival gig and our drummer made us practice our set for 3 weeks prior. Same songs over and over again. That got tedious.

Also in that same band we had blocks of songs so at practice we would run those altogether in order.

Last band I was in that gigged a ton we kept the same set list for every gig and only practiced once every 4 months where we would add 5 or 6 new songs and drop same from the list. Everyone did their homework and we could bang them out to at least a "good enough" status to play out.

 

[richardp69]

I just play with one other guy and he's a really fine guitar player. We do decide on which songs we;re going to concentrate on for each session and we try to stick to that. of cours, we invariably get oiff on tangents and try other material as well but that's just part of the process. We prefer to play unplugged but at some point if we decide to play out I'm sure we'll plug in just to see how it goes.

He kinda drives me nuts though and wants to do everything exactly the way the original artisi recorded the song. I like a bit more flexibility to kinda go where that moment takes you. I'm trying hard to do it his way though.

 

[Midnight Toker]

I still believe in a setlist running order, just like on an album. Starting w/ a strong tune, keeping a block of slower tunes together in the middle of a set, ending a set before a break w/ a strong tune, and of course, closing w/ your best. But you certainly shouldn't have to practice tunes in any order, unless one flows right into the next, like w/ The Dead. And if you're seasoned enough, know your well of tunes, and can read your audience, you can certainly make it up as you go onstage. But as far as practice...stick more w/ tunes that might require more practice/fine tuning. 2nd nature tunes that are on autopilot, you shouldn't even waste your time w/. Tunes that aren't 2nd nature should be played over and over and over until they are. When tunes become really comfortable, that's when it gets really fun to expand and interplay. Fun is the goal, but it often takes some real work to get there. In general, simply being really good at something does indeed make doing it that much more enjoyable, for you, and for everyone else.

 

[Coop47]

Yeah, me, too, usually. But for practices?! Seems a little OCD, doesn't it?

Depends on the band and how rehearsals run. In my last few bands, we've gone in knowing what needs work, then there's at least a semblance of a plan if not an actual list. Sometimes structure is needed in order to reign in some of the less focused folks. (You know how musicians are.) It's such a PITA to schedule that we want to make good use of whatever time we can get.

On the other hand, I guess I can be a little OCD at times too. Maybe you have a point, Charlie.

 

[fronobulax]

Yeah, me, too, usually. But for practices?! Seems a little OCD, doesn't it?

Instrumental musicians who are trying to improve will eventually learn there is a difference between "playing" and "practice". If you are playing then you have the instrument in your hands, you are playing it and you are doing whatever strikes your fancy - a song you enjoy, exploring the sound, whatever. Practice tends to have a specific goal or focus in mind - playing a chord so it sounds even and clean or accomplishing a particular progression at a particular tempo.

So what I notice being described is is one person who wants to play with a group of friends who might do that in public eventually and perhaps as many as three people who have a minimum standard they want to meet prior to performing in public. A set list is a tool for practicing but of little use for playing.

We played pubs and festivals, and no one in the audience complained.

As an audience member I won't bother to tell a performer that their performance sucked or that their band sounded like they had never been in the same room together before. I'd just make a note to be elsewhere if I ever see the same people on a performance bill. If the venue was a place that made money from the audience by selling food and beverage or just tickets, I might tell the booking agent they had made a mistake but I'm not sure I would equate audience silence as "approval".

I have done performances that were under-planned or under-rehearsed and there is definitely an adrenaline rush when doing so and a strong sense of satisfaction when things work out. But for my personality and "performance standards" that needs to be the exception, not the rule.

We could probably get along musically if we could come to an accommodation so that most of the things I practiced on my own were things you were likely to want to play.

 

[Stuball48]

I'm lucky. I've managed to get away from playing with people whose music I hate. It's taken some doing.

Charlie
I would say you have more confidence than the other group members. They seem to want their music centered around them and you seem "let's enjoy the music." They may think their mistakes are "amplified." And you may be a "gamer."

 

[Stuball48]

I just play with one other guy and he's a really fine guitar player. We do decide on which songs we;re going to concentrate on for each session and we try to stick to that. of cours, we invariably get oiff on tangents and try other material as well but that's just part of the process. We prefer to play unplugged but at some point if we decide to play out I'm sure we'll plug in just to see how it goes.

He kinda drives me nuts though and wants to do everything exactly the way the original artisi recorded the song. I like a bit more flexibility to kinda go where that moment takes you. I'm trying hard to do it his way though.

Richard:
I have a couple of your CDs of your songs. I hear originality in them not some do-over of a past hit. I can sense a little of Richard Peterson. Don't try too hard to do it his way.

 

[Neal]

I think there is such a thing as over-practicing a set. Or playing the same exact set, in exactly the same order, week after week. It can suck the life out of the spontaneity of the performance, and start to sound stale/canned.

Having said that, I have done plenty of "seat of the pants" performances with other musicians, and that's a recipe for a train wreck, unless the setting is one in which the audience knows all of you and realizes you are improvising on the spot. If so, it can turn out great...or not!

 

[crank]

I've played a fair amount of "Pick-up band " gigs over the years. Some went great, some had a few trainwrecks.

Drummer in one of my bands used to play occasionally with a band called Sam and the Subs. A singer/rhythm guitar who would recruit different guys for gigs. I went to see them with my drummer filling that slot one night. They really sucked. I didn't tell him that.. He's a good player - he knew they sucked.

I think how you practice depends on if you are practicing for a gig and what type of gig. If you're playing a lot of club/ dance gigs you want to practice going from one song to the next with no downtime.

 

[Midnight Toker]

^ yep, hence the term "frontman", which doesn't necessarily mean you are a great singer, but someone engaging and entertaining enough to keep an audience's attention on mic between songs/guitar changes/tuning. Dead air is just as bad live than it is on the radio. Few make good frontmen. Even great singers. That's why it's best to keep the flow going w/ as little time between tunes as necessary. I've found that most guys on mic tend to jabber and tell inside band jokes no one in the audience gets during downtime.

 

[davismanLV]

But for my personality and .....

Okay, now we're getting somewhere. There is practice and there is practice. There are people and there are people. What I think you have to remember is that people learn/thrive/succeed/fail in different situations. Some thrive in chaos, and some in structure. Different people, different needs and styles. So when you throw a group of people together, it's rare that you're gonna get a bunch of people that totally dig/thrive on chaos!

Beyond that I'll say that there's practice, where you rehearse your roles at the same time to gain cohesion and structure. Jamming, to me, is about exploring and testing different options. They are two different things. Some people can combine them in limited quantities and make it both. If you have chaotic types and structure freaks together in a band, you're going to have to find some common ground somewhere in the middle, or even separate practice into different segments to appease both, with maybe some rules about when you get to do what.

Then you address the skill level of the players. If that varies widely within a group, you're gonna get people getting bored and those struggling to keep up. Two different things. Which is why I think separating times for both structure and improvisation is a good thing. Then you're going to get the personality types. Some are take charge personalities, and you have to be careful depending on which category they fall in. A super take charge personality who's going to impose structure and sameness will squelch any creative input and originality. And the same in reverse. Then people get unhappy.

In my thoughts, this is why finding people to play with and keeping a band together is so difficult.

 

[Longnose Gar]

I'm very lucky. I only play with one other guy. He's a better singer and guitarist than I am. He is kind to my shortcomings on guitar and vocals, and he digs the songs I write. We write songs solo and bring them to our weekly sessions in my home studio where we have time to play about 12 songs. We have over 100 original songs. We don't practice, we just play. Which means the lead guitar parts begin life totally improvised (and we are amateurs), and over time the lead player starts to remember the licks that worked and is able to repeat some of them. Songwriting is our favorite part, and we like playing all the songs. So that means we never get very good at any of them. I'd love to dial in a dozen songs, and I think we'd get good enough to play to a generous audience. But he has no time to play gigs, so that's not going to happen. I'm grateful that he likes playing with me and playing my songs, and I don't have to worry about an audience. I get to be both the player and the audience for three hours each week.

 

[walrus]

For about 10 years I played in a little band at school (as a faculty member) that played a few shows at the end of every semester at school events. We definitely practiced and played a certain set of songs only. But each semester we learned 4 or 5 new songs, no repeats, so that was actually kind of fun and challenging. We all agreed (for the most part) on what the songs would be.

Since that band ended 7 years or so I have been playing pretty much by myself. However, on the plus side, I like myself and my taste in music.

walrus

 

[MacGuild]

... [set lists] for practices?! Seems a little OCD, doesn't it?

Yep, doesn't seem much point unless you guys are getting ready to go on tour with the Stones.
Echo upthread envy for having a group with which to play. Lucky you! I come from an area obsessed with ear-stabbing traditional fiddle music and step dancing which, as a guitarist, is like trying to play along with someone tormenting a sack of frantic kittens.