Serious Finish Checking After Setup...What Should I Do??

[rappde]

Hi All,

I got my 1976 F212-XL NT off eBay in Feb '09. Happily "bought it now" for $1,450 to my door. It had allegedly been "in a closet" for 33 years and looked it...not a scratch or dent to be found...even the pick guard hardly had a mark on it. Everything perfect except for slight bowing on top just below bridge on right due to, I guess, high string tension and no humidity for three decades. Local tech addressed the problem with some humidification and it is almost invisible. Plays great.

Wanted lower action so took it to the same tech (3-location private chain...not a franchise) and am feeling sick after getting it back. Despite its age, the finish had no checking that I could see before I dropped it off. When it came back there was checking all over the place (see a bunch of pics on imageshack), particularly at about 2:00 and 5:00 around the hole, but small spots elsewhere.

http://img221.imageshack.us/i/guildf212xlnt001.jpg/

Apparently the tech had to sand down the bridge, causing these stress fractures in the old lacquer. He has offered to refinish the entire top at no charge, but also pointed out that finish checking on vintage instruments is not necessarily a bad thing. He offered as evidence the attached link, from which this quote is taken "if you’re one of the many players who actually take pride in its badge-of-honor presence, you might not consider finish checking a problem in the first place."

http://www.fender.com/news/index.php?display_article=466

I have to say this article doesn't make me feel much better, not only because it deals with nitro-finish solid body Fenders, instead of lacquered acoustic Guilds, but also because in the picture, the checking seems to be pervasive and uniform in its pattern, whereas mine is local to certain spots and definitely not uniform.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think I have anything to worry about regarding playability...I expect the sound to stay rich and full and continue to mellow more as the years go by, if that's even possible. I'm very concerned about appearance and resale value, and doing the right thing to honor this old instrument as well as protect my investment. You can hardly see anything looking straight on, and there's no surface irregularity to the touch. It's noticeable only when the light is right, and then it's hideous, in my opinion. Here's what I'm wondering:

1. If I care for the instrument (humidity, temperature, etc) will the checking spread or stay pretty much as is?
2. Will the checking develop into cracks that expose the wood beneath to damage?
3. Will the checking affect sound?
4. Will the checking affect resale value?
5. Should I consider having the top refinished? Why or why not?
6. Should I consider asking for damages in the form of a check representing the degradation on resale value, or asking the store to find me a replacement vintage instrument?

Thanks in advance for reading my long winded sob story, and for any advice or comfort you can provide. I have a small 'family', this and a 1973 F-47 I bought new, so when one of my 'kids' is hurt, I'm hurt. I've never spent $1,400 on anything other than a car in my life, so I'm going through major trauma here...

Dennis

 

[adorshki]

HI Dennis, WELCOME ABOARD! I sympathize 100%, especially with that part about the only thing you ever paid more for was a car. Me too, and even then I paid LESS for some cars than any of my guitars!
Anyway, the one question I'm certain of the answer to is that re-finishing the top WILL affect the tone to some small degree. Whether it's even noticable to you is up to your ears, but the nitrocellulose lacquer Guild used (assuming it's the original finish) DOES dry out as it ages and this means even the finish gets more resonant as it ages. Again, how much this affects tone has been debated here and elsewhere, but it IS kind of like re-starting the tone aging process.
I think the checking is technically a damage to the instrument's value. I think an actual appraiser would deduct value for that reason. Pretty much the same rules apply as for cars: Original paint on good condition is more valuable than original paint in poor condition.
Whether or not any given individual has a preference for worn original paint and wants to pay more for it is up to them.
At the extreme, damaged original finish is almost always more valuable than a refinish for appraisal purposes. IE, I think re-finishing will also technically lower the value.
In your case it sounds like it was undamaged but returned damaged, and I think you've got a legitimate reason to ask for some compensation. My luthier noted the condition of my guitar when I brought it in for example.
I think their professional expertise would be expected to come into play to advise you of this potential problem occurring by accepting the job and performing the work. All small claims court type stuff I'm sure you'd want to try to work out with them, just giving my take.
What really attracts my attention however is that you mention they "sanded down the bridge" which is usually considered a stop-gap measure to cheaply address more serious problems, like the need for a neck re-set. In a healthy guitar only the saddle should need sanding to lower the action. Which again brings up the question of their liabilty in performing the work. Were you fully advised about the reasons they sanded down the bridge and consented to it?
Some others here I think will have better insight as to the other complications you ask about. Every question is legitimate.

 

[Default]

checking after a repair should be taken care of - particularly if there was no checking before you dropped it off.

<edit after looking at pics>

My goodness, yeah the tech should fix it. :roll:

 

[GardMan]

Hey Dennis,
Sorry to hear of your problem. My '92 D-55 shipped to me thru a NorthEast blizzard, and arrived at my door with significant finish checking... on par with that on your Guild. So, I went thru some of the same angst in deciding what to do. I'll leave aside for now the issue of whether sanding the bridge was the proper thing to do, and give my answers to your direct questions.

1. If I care for the instrument (humidity, temperature, etc) will the checking spread or stay pretty much as is?

I'm not an expert... but if temp and humidity remains relatively constant (or change only slowly), I don't think so. But a sudden change in temp might cause the existing finish cracks to lengthen... but I don't really know. I haven't noticed any spreading of the finish checks on my 55 in the three years I have had her.

2. Will the checking develop into cracks that expose the wood beneath to damage?

I have never heard of that happening... tho' I spose if two checks run close together, a sharp blow might dislodge a flake of the finish. But, that might happen w/o checking. On the other hand... I have heard that the checks can darken over time as the accumulate polish, etc.

3. Will the checking affect sound?

Some would say checking has a positive effect on tone... allowing the top to vibrate more freely. I have heard this several times in reference to old Gibsons...

4. Will the checking affect resale value?

Probably. When I asked my luthier in regards to my D-55... he said it would affect value by 10-15% at most. But, significant checking might turn away some buyers from the beginning.

5. Should I consider having the top refinished? Why or why not?

I wouldn't... that would have a greater effect on resale value (if you are upfront about the refin) than the checking does, and who knows how it would affect the tone.

6. Should I consider asking for damages in the form of a check representing the degradation on resale value, or asking the store to find me a replacement vintage instrument?

You could... but you would might need to look for a new luthier/guitar tech. On the other hand, you might be doing that, anyway. I also might expect an honest shop to offer compensation... the setup "gratis"... strings or accessories... something. In the techs defense... checking happens. He might not have been mistreating your guitar, but a little to much pressure flexed the top enough and "POP!" He was probably pretty disturbed when it happened...

With my 55, the damage appeared to have happened in shipping, thru no fault of the seller. So, rather than eat the shipping costs both ways (which would have exceeded the depreciation due to checking), the seller and I split the estimated 15% loss in value.

Thanks in advance for reading my lo...fe, so I'm going through major trauma here...
Hope you end up with some sort of satisfaction. Although the sight of the checking on my 55 still rankles me a bit (when I think of what she MIGHT have looked like), I still have her... and she still sounds great!

Good luck,
Dave

 

[taabru45]

I'm going to get shot here. my F512 which is about 34 years old just got released from the Pawn shop. for the last time I hope...so I took it in to my luthier for inspection. Nothing needs doing, neck set is fine, binding, everything is good. Now there were some very minor marks, not quite scracthes above the sound hole., and some more serious ones from when someone else had played it...watch out ....here it comes...I sprinkled a little baby powder on that area, and rubbed it using mind pressure and a microfiber washcloth....the marks totally disappeared, finish shines and is smooth like a baby's bottom...sorry....seriously...its a very soft material...I then used it on the black pickguard, same thing...then I tried it on the bottom side of the soundhole...everything came out except for a couple of rougher spots ...I'm not saying this will solve your problems, but you might try it on the pickguard, then maybe on a cheaper instrument. I was cautious is trying it, only on the very light scratches at first, but I'm amazed at the results...if you have a lacquer coffee table, or some such...you might try it on an inconspicuous area...I'm too busy playing the 512 for pictures right now, but, maybe later...Its looking almost like new..seriously, but then again I've looked after it, and it has a few finish cracks, that were there when I bought it...but the sound etc, is what sold me, all the slight 'imperfections' got me was a couple of hundred dollars off.... Steffan
P.S. From what I've read, talc is powdered soapstone, which is very soft and basically non abrasive....for what its worth...

 

[devellis]

I'm concerned that this may not work well on a crazed finish. The fractures are either on or under the surface. If they're under the surface, then the baby powder can't polish them out. If they're on the surface, I'd worry that powder would collect in the fissures. Crazing is different from shallow surface scratches. The latter can be buffed out (with baby powder or some other gentle abrasive) but crazing is usually deeper fissures in the finish.

I don't know squat about finish chemistry. I don't know if nitro can be locally re-softened with a solvent and smoothed like a French polish finish. But that would be the only way I can think of (assuming it would even work with nitrocellulose) of repairing the crazing. My heart really went out to the OP when I read his post. But this might be something that is best left alone. If the tech will tear up the bill for the repair work, that might be the best to hope for. It doesn't sound like the tech was negligent, just that it was difficult to anticipate the consequences of the work he did. (As someone else said, I'm putting aside the whole bridge-sanding issue for now.) Chalk it up to experience; at least you have a good story to tell. Enjoy the instrument and hopefully it'll help you forget about the finish problems.

 

[capnjuan]

Hi Dennis; welcome and sorry about your guitar. Those are fractures in the finish and no amount of buffing ... with or without baby powder (although there's no reason not to try) is going to take them out ... can't be done on a 'spot re-finish' basis because it can't be made to match the adjacent, undamaged area. Whoever it was just clumsily pushed down too hard on the deck ... enough to make it flex to the point of cracking the finish.

This is one of those crappy deals; even if they re-finish the top at their expense, you'd have a duty to disclose it ... so ... they'd be out the trouble to correct but you'd still be out the sales price spread between a natural v. a refinished top. Unless somebody told you that you were assuming the risk of their clumsiness when you dropped it off, this is their problem; to fix and pay you or just pay you. Good luck. CJ

 

[chazmo]

Well, my unwavering advice is do *not* refinish a guitar just because of finish checking. No way. Unless the looks are actually going to stop you from playing the guitar because of OCD or something (seriously).

As for the work that was done here, it's a tough call. A luthier should be able to warn you when the situtation exists that finish damage is likely. Apparently, this tech didn't know that. Given that, I would not trust this person to refinish my guitar anyway, but really the fact that it was offered is good faith and I think that's important. He didn't throw it in your face and deny responsibility. The fact is, stuff happens when your guitar gets worked on, and it's the only way these folks get experience. Tools fall, things break, it's just the way it is.

I strongly recommend just living with it. You might be able to convince the tech that instead of a refin today, maybe he'll do a neck reset for you in the future gratis (which will probably be needed). That said, you have to decide if he has the skills.

 

[bunuel]

Finish checking doesn't bother me, happens with nitrocellulose finishes. One thing for sure, refinishing will diminish the resale value a lot more than finish checking!

 

[JerryR]

My old D35 has checking all over - shows in some lights more than others but doesn't bother me.

 

[rappde]

Folks thanks for all the advice!

I will definitely not go the refinish route, but the tech's offer to refinish the top at no charge tells me he thinks something pretty significant has happened here, that he's responsible, and that he's willing to try to make it right somehow.

I live near Atlanta so it shouldn't be hard to find a couple vintage guitar shops that can appraise my guitar 'as-is' and also tell me what it might be worth with a 'perfect' finish. Whatever the difference is, I'd expect my shop to compensate me with cash, merchandise or services equal to that amount.

Based on the reply that said the value might have been impacted by 10-15%, I'm guessing the difference will be a couple hundred bucks, which is probably about what the refinish job is worth anyway, so I think the negotiation should go pretty smooth given what they've offered already.

Will let you know how I make out.

Dennis

 

[Guild Beginner]

My '54 Gibson LG-2 looks way worse than that. My advice is play the hell out of it until the checking is equal to the play wear and you'll find yourself with a really cool-looking vintage guitar that you're ultimately more attached to than a mint one.

 

[West R Lee]

I agree with Gardman's post 100%, furthermore it sounds as if there are a couple of things that could have caused the checking. First of all, the sanding of the bridge would require some pressure around that area of the top that the guitar apparently hadn't seen in 33 years. The other possible cause might be if the repairman adjusted the neck with the truss rod during setup, again exerting forces on the top that it hadn' seen in 33 years. She's a beautiful guitar and I'd play her for the next 33 years and not give it a thought, she'll be fine. I am sorry it happened.

West

 

[Bobby McGee]

I certainly can relate. I recently purchased a D50CE (Carona) that was shipped from Nashville to Pittsburgh (my home away from home); when it arrived I felt sick to my stomache.

I realized that it was not the shippers fault, and I waited 28 hours before opening, but we think it was placed in the lower belly of an airplane and got real cold. I was given the option to return it for full refund, but after playing it I could not part with it, even with the checking, so he gave me a reasonable settlement of $100. I plan on bringing it out to play at the pubs, so it's probably going to take a beating anyways. I figure that it just adds character and have decided to live with it. Who knows, after being dragged around in the Canadian winter, it probably would have developed the checking eventually anyways.

Unfortunately these things happen and there is not much you can do about it. Try to accept it as it is and play the crap out of it.

Bobby.

 

[chazmo]

Bobby, good angle to pick up the checking. Ouch is right.

Made to be played, baby.

 

[fronobulax]

Welcome rappde.

I agree with everyone else about the refinish. Only have it refinished as a last resort because something is guaranteed to change. My guess is that something would be tone or resale value

I get the sense that your luthier is a pretty good person in the sense that they understand something went wrong on their watch and they have some responsibility to fix it. I would cut them as much slack as I could and work with them. That said, I would explore other options besides a refin.

Good luck.

 

[Bing k]

I certainly can relate. I recently purchased a D50CE (Carona) that was shipped from Nashville to Pittsburgh (my home away from home); when it arrived I felt sick to my stomache.

I realized that it was not the shippers fault, and I waited 28 hours before opening, but we think it was placed in the lower belly of an airplane and got real cold. I was given the option to return it for full refund, but after playing it I could not part with it, even with the checking, so he gave me a reasonable settlement of $100. I plan on bringing it out to play at the pubs, so it's probably going to take a beating anyways. I figure that it just adds character and have decided to live with it. Who knows, after being dragged around in the Canadian winter, it probably would have developed the checking eventually anyways.

Unfortunately these things happen and there is not much you can do about it. Try to accept it as it is and play the crap out of it.

Bobby.

Are the back and sides also affected?

 

[Rich]

You can't play the paint.

 

[6L6]

Both my '74 D-40 and '77 D-50 have finish checking on the top. But, they both sound incredible and they ain't goin' nowhere!

All that said, it seems to me I see more Guild acoustics with finish checking on top than all other acoustic guitars COMBINED. Why is that...?

6

 

[Bobby McGee]

Are the back and sides also affected?

NOPE!