Question for the Starfire Bass Gurus (Long)

twocorgis

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OK, to try to address some of the electrical gremlins that have been plaguing the Starfire II bass since I got it, I have sent it down to our most capable house luthier (and electrical engineer) Fixit. Since it arrived, the bridge pickup has been about twice as loud as the neck pickup. Also, all the pots on the bass (volume, tone, and master volume) have all their action between 8 and 10 on the control, which I know can't be right. Additionally, the bridge pickup is too high (which may account for some of the volume disparity of the two pups). If you raise the bridge high enough to clear the bridge pickup, then the action becomes way too high. On a BiSonic pickup, there isn't any up and down adjustment for the pickup itself, though you can raise and lower the poles. It seems that the only way to lower the pickup as a whole is to sand down the mount that it's on, which is made out of wood. Tom was game to sand it down to lower it, so we were all good there. Then there was the matter of the "suck" (bass boost) switch, which only works on the neck pickup, and all the conventional wisdom seems to agree that the best thing you can do for the sound of the neck pup is to disable it.

I was a bit anxious about shipping the Starfire II because of it rarity, but was relieved when it arrived there in good order last week. Tom's been really busy as of late (not surprising), but got to look at the bass today. He removed the neck pickup, and this is what he found

IMG_1446.jpg


Who knew that there was a transformer in there, and if so, is it supposed to be there? Tom said that it appears that the wiring from the transformer appears to go towards the suck switch, but I have no idea whether that's the way it was from the factory, or if the transformer was added some time later. I did some googling, for "transformer neck pickup starfire bass" and came up with a few hits like this one, where they discuss using transformers in other basses (not Starfires) to compensate for the low impedance of the pickups. I have no idea whether Bisonics are considered low impedance pickups, but that's one possible expanation of why the transformer would have put in there from the factory.

I guess my question to the folks that own and have modded Starfires and DeArmond Starfires is: is the transformer on the neck pickup necessary? Do you bypass it as well if you're bypassing the suck switch? Does the trnsformer have anything to do with the significant volume disparity between the two pickups? I'm more or less flying by the seat of my pants here, so any and all info would be appreciated here. I'm sure Tom would appreciate it as well.
 

Zelja

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I have zero experience with the SF basses & how they are wired so the following is all guesswork & based on some assumptions.

It depends on how the transformer is wired. If just one coil of the transformer is wired in parallel with the pickup that would effectively decrease the overall inductance of the pickup & cause a thinner sound with less volumes, more highs. Is the "suck" switch supposed to thin out the sound when activated? if so maybe it's supposed to switch the transformer into the circuit (in parallel with he PU) for the thin sound & switch it out for the what would be the normal pickup sound. Maybe the switch is faulty or wired such that the transformer is always in circuit?

Obviously a different story if it is wired as an impedance matching transformer. The question would be why as I would assume both pickups would have the same specs (DC resistance & inductance) - I guess Tom will check that out.
 

gilded

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Corg',

I don't know anything about transformers either, but I can tell you that I can definitely see what looks like one (possibly two different) number(s) stamped on the strap of the trannie. One should be an Elec. Industry. Assn. manufacturer/date code. The other, if it is there, should be a 'part number'.

The date code will tell you when the trannie was manufactured and who made it. What I see looks like
xxx7x2x or a date in 70's in the 20 through the 29th week of whatever the exact year is. If there is a part number, it might be of assistance in telling some Guild Luminary something about the purpose of the trannie and which basses/guitars it was usually on...

And you are right, the only acceptable way to adjust the pickup height is to sand the wooden ring down. Easy job for Fixit.

Good luck, HH
 

twocorgis

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Thanks for the wealth of info Zelko and Harry; what an amazing place this is. 8)

I'm sure that Tom will find a lot of this useful. I'd find it useful if I knew what you guys were talking about. :roll: :lol:
 

fronobulax

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FWIW, there does not seem to be a transformer involved with the suck switch of a '71 JS II although I have had reliable sources tell me that the suck circuit is different between a humbucker and a Bisonic equipped Guild bass.

The diagram below is Guild's. I would date it to mid-67. It the transformer was original then I would suggest it was not required to make a Bisonic behave.

SF-II.JPG


FWIW I have never heard anyone claim that the Bisonic is a low impedance PU so my knee jerk reaction would be to restore the bass to the non-suck diagram above and see what happens which means ditching the tranny.

mgod? Hans?
 

twocorgis

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That's great stuff Frono, and might be all we need. I know Tom was looking for a schematic, and that should do it. Sayonara suck switch! 8)
 

Fixit

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great stuff thanks all. If anybody has a schematic with the suck switch in it, that also would be interesting just to see what it was supose to do. The schematic posted by Frono looks good and is probably what it should look like without the switch. Has anyone ever replaced the suck switch with a phase switch like an S-100?
 

bklynbass

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Who knew that there was a transformer in there, and if so, is it supposed to be there? Tom said that it appears that the wiring from the transformer appears to go towards the suck switch, but I have no idea whether that's the way it was from the factory, or if the transformer was added some time later.

It's a coil, not a transformer, it was standard, and if you bypass or remove it, it will most likely solve the problem your'e having. I had the exact same problem with my M-85 and it went away when I dealt with the coil.

If anybody has a schematic with the suck switch in it, that also would be interesting just to see what it was supose to do.

I believe the "baritone" (a/k/a "suck") switch was supposed to cut low end on the neck pickup, which it does quite well. The problem is that it usually also destroys the signal even when the switch isn't engaged.

Not sure why they did it...maybe the front pickup's massive low end had a tendency to blow out the speakers of those days?

They never should have been put in there.
 

Fixit

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The transformer only has two wires so acting as a choke? One side goes to the neck pickup gnd. the other looks like it goes to the neck pickup tone pot, best I can tell using mirror and a flashlight? I am going to have to pull the wiring harness out anyway to clean pots and switches corrrectly, and I can trace out the circuit then. Does anybody out there think this wiring could be factory and original? I have serious doubts about that.

Zeldja, This looks very much like the link you posted about the Armstrong Q-tone circuit. Just trying to figure out if Guild used this circuit or a variation of it in this bass. Is this the S.U.C.K. switch circuit, and have any other members run into this transformer in any of these basses?
 

Fixit

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gilded said:
Corg',

I don't know anything about transformers either, but I can tell you that I can definitely see what looks like one (possibly two different) number(s) stamped on the strap of the trannie. One should be an Elec. Industry. Assn. manufacturer/date code. The other, if it is there, should be a 'part number'.

The date code will tell you when the trannie was manufactured and who made it. What I see looks like
xxx7x2x or a date in 70's in the 20 through the 29th week of whatever the exact year is. If there is a part number, it might be of assistance in telling some Guild Luminary something about the purpose of the trannie and which basses/guitars it was usually on...

And you are right, the only acceptable way to adjust the pickup height is to sand the wooden ring down. Easy job for Fixit.

Good luck, HH

BTW the numbers on the transformer are: 007020 and 9265151
 

mgod

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Its not a transformer, its a choke, its the heart of "suck-tone". Its stock. Remove it. Even without seeing it, I'm willing to bet the wiring is also stock.

The best way to know what's going on with two very unbalanced pickups is swap them. If they both have the same number of magnets, and the problem stays with the pickup and not its position you've determined something.

Also: I have a box of dead Bisonics in RT's shop. As some know I've been deep in this for almost 40 years now, and have had to deal with lots of different problems - although I never actually deal with them, I hand them to better men than me and hope for the best. Its not unheard of for there to be real problems in the pickup itself. The low-impedance pickup I've mentioned before started out as completely dead, so we literally rewound it with a different kind of wire. Dead pickups go in the Frankenstein box.

The wooden pickup mount should be fine as is. In fact, it is fine as is unless its not original but was a previous owner's attempt at side-stepping a problem they misdiagnosed. The problem is elsewhere.

Unfortunately, its a slow process. Remove suck circuit. Listen. Swap pickups, listen.
 

fronobulax

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Schematic for a jS II with humbuckers and suck switch.
JSCCA.jpg


Control cavity of the same.
2007ShrineMont%2520075.jpg


Posting because they were asked for but irrelevant to this discussion since the JS suck switches between a resistor and a capacitor whereas the Starfire/Bisonic suck uses a coil. I thank bklynbass for posting since he is the person who made me realize that the circuits were not the same and mgod because he has seen more bisonics than just about anybody else who posts here.

Because I like summarizing things - in part to make sure i remember them - the coil is almost certainly factory and should be expected on a Starfire with a suck switch, which is basically mid-67 through the switch to humbuckers circa 1970. That probably starts around serial BA-1450 and goes through the "end" of the BA numbering sequence. I have no idea what to expect from a 1970 bass with a five digit serial number and no BA prefix.

Removing the coil and wiring it so it looks like the earlier Starfire II schematic is probably step 1. If it doesn't sing then swapping the PUs would be step II.

I have a PDF of the schematic that is much clear and you can even read the value on a capacitor. I will email it to twocorgis since I'm not sure I have fixit's email.
 

gilded

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Fixit said:
gilded said:
Corg',

I don't know anything about transformers either, but I can tell you that I can definitely see what looks like one (possibly two different) number(s) stamped on the strap of the trannie. One should be an Elec. Industry. Assn. manufacturer/date code. The other, if it is there, should be a 'part number'.

The date code will tell you when the trannie was manufactured and who made it. What I see looks like
xxx7x2x or a date in 70's in the 20 through the 29th week of whatever the exact year is. If there is a part number, it might be of assistance in telling some Guild Luminary something about the purpose of the trannie and which basses/guitars it was usually on...

And you are right, the only acceptable way to adjust the pickup height is to sand the wooden ring down. Easy job for Fixit.

Good luck, HH

BTW the numbers on the transformer are: 007020 and 9265151

Okay, I did some sleuthing for you Gents. First off, a lot of you guys know that you can pull some cool info of the codes on electrical components on amps and guitars; dates of manufacture, internal parts verification, codes for the companies being supplied the components, etc.

926 is the EIA (electronics industry association) number code for Todd Electrical Company. They were one of the companies that supplied transformers to Ampeg, way back when, according to the unofficial ampeg page:
http://www.unofficialampeg.com/dating.html

Todd may go under the name Todd Systems now, but that is just a guess. My point is, if Ampeg used Todd Electric Co. in the '60's and '70's Guild may well have used them, too, based on the documented cross-pollination between the Ampeg factory in Linden, NJ and the nearby Guild amp facility.

I also saw a limited discussion about a Todd Output trannie with the code 9263137 on one of my searches:
http://music-electronics-forum.com/t7641/.

That tells me that '926xxxx' may be a code that shows the manufacturer (Todd = 926) and the component code (5151 = a certain model of 'choke'. Who knows what 3137 may reference!

The 007020 number may be a Guild part number, a Todd Inventory number, or even a date code. If it is a date code, then it would suggest that the part was made in the 20th week of 1970.

Since Corgi-Man's SF II was made in '68, that would suggest the trannie was made later and therefore added to the bass later. I don't believe that to be true and would think that this could be confirmed or denied eventually when someone here looks at yet another Todd choke- in their suck-switch equipped SF II.

So get cracking boys, the next time somebody changes their strings, pop the neck pickup off and see if there is a choke
with codes on it, then Get Back To Us All!!

By the way, Gibson EBs with the suck switch have a choke buried in the body, too, albeit in a different location (under the bridge with a black plastic cap on top of the route, if I remember correctly).


mgod said:
The wooden pickup mount should be fine as is. In fact, it is fine as is unless its not original but was a previous owner's attempt at side-stepping a problem they misdiagnosed. The problem is elsewhere.

Oh Great and Gifted Monkey God, I respectfully disagree. I've seen two early-ish SF I basses with wooden pickup mounts that were way too tall.

Yer pal, Harry
 

Fixit

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mgod said:
Its not a transformer, its a choke, its the heart of "suck-tone". Its stock. Remove it. Even without seeing it, I'm willing to bet the wiring is also stock.

The best way to know what's going on with two very unbalanced pickups is swap them. If they both have the same number of magnets, and the problem stays with the pickup and not its position you've determined something.

Also: I have a box of dead Bisonics in RT's shop. As some know I've been deep in this for almost 40 years now, and have had to deal with lots of different problems - although I never actually deal with them, I hand them to better men than me and hope for the best. Its not unheard of for there to be real problems in the pickup itself. The low-impedance pickup I've mentioned before started out as completely dead, so we literally rewound it with a different kind of wire. Dead pickups go in the Frankenstein box.

The wooden pickup mount should be fine as is. In fact, it is fine as is unless its not original but was a previous owner's attempt at side-stepping a problem they misdiagnosed. The problem is elsewhere.

Unfortunately, its a slow process. Remove suck circuit. Listen. Swap pickups, listen.

Thanks, Mgod

Great advise and definatly where we are headed. I'll post results of the testing as we go. I'm hoping we do not have a pick up issue BTW there are the same number of magnets on each pickup.
 
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