Question about US live concerts

[Midnight Toker]

I think the only live performance rules (whatever they may be) I have ever perceived in actual use is the posting of song writer’s name and copyright info on screen if someone performs a song written by someone else. All that ASCAP type rules n stuff, I guess.

Once I asked Michael Hedges if I could play his stuff when I played live and he was like “Sure, you see me doing Beatles songs and stuff.”. And that was in the days where there were no screens in club venues and in classical performance venues and no one posted anything.

That would be funny to see an ASCAP guy go onstage and make Segovia stop playing until they got a sign up.

It may be a state to state thing, but in all my touring years (everywhere east of the Mississippi) I have never once seen anyone post any songwriter's name while playing a cover. Clubs that feature regular live music typically have to pay annual dues to ASCAP, and there's usually an ASCAP/BMI member sticker on the venue's front door. (These dues are based on regularity of live music and attendance capacity limits, and they aren't cheap!)

 

[Coop47]

In that discussion - finnish program if you will . . . - they contemplated the U2 tour that had three setups at same time - while playing on one the next was built and previous was being torn down. Naturally such tour has extremely high budget - and if one day the singer - or anybody else of that huge MACHINE can not do their part at full - there is always the backing track - just open different channel on FOH-mixer. Naturally drummer plays with click, that's controlling tempo . . .

Funny you mention U2. I saw them a few times over the years. The first was during the Joshua Tree tour and it was one of the most organic, raw, honest, powerful shows I've ever seen. Whatever you think of Bono now, he was pure charisma and audience connection in those days. Obviously by the Zoo TV and Pop stadium tours, it was all about the spectacle and the stunts.

I last saw them on the Elevation tour, with seats behind the stage. You could see that there were a number of musicians under the stage augmenting the four-piece. I wasn't surprised, but I was disappointed. I don't know why, but hidden musicians bug me more than backing tracks. Last time I saw Aerosmith at Fenway, Tyler clearly had someone ghosting his parts. I can understand why, but it still left me feeling like I was watching a musical rather than a concert. I'm not outraged or indignant, but I've chosen not to see those bands again live - it's just not the experience I'm looking for.

Nuuska's point about the "machine" is dead on. I feel bad for Bon Jovi, who's getting crucified for his lousy live vocals. He's got to be under enormous pressure as the only indispensable cog in a huge operation employing dozens trying to feed their families - none of whom could work for them during the pandemic. Should JBJ have ghost singer? Backing tape? Cancel shows? I don't know what the "right" thing to do is in that case.

 

[Midnight Toker]

Having musicians not "members" of a band playing where they can't be seen has been going on for a long time. (Cue the guy that played keyboards for The Who for decades going back to the early 70's!! He usually sat behind a scrim in the wings...just off-stage) It has a lot to do branding....and w/ $$$. Just like a tv or movie role w/ or w/o scripted lines. You're either payed as an extra, or a credited role. Musicians either get a member touring share....or nightly scale.

 

[7GuildsandanSG]

I typically just blame it on the rain...

 

[crank]

I know guys who did world tours with some very big acts and were paid probably less than scale but were definitely onstage and part of the show.

I should add that this was back in the 80's.

 

[fronobulax]

I think the only live performance rules (whatever they may be) I have ever perceived in actual use is the posting of song writer’s name and copyright info on screen if someone performs a song written by someone else. All that ASCAP type rules n stuff, I guess.

Once I asked Michael Hedges if I could play his stuff when I played live and he was like “Sure, you see me doing Beatles songs and stuff.”. And that was in the days where there were no screens in club venues and in classical performance venues and no one posted anything.

That would be funny to see an ASCAP guy go onstage and make Segovia stop playing until they got a sign up.

Something most folks don't realize is that it is the venue owner who is liable for royalty payments when a performer covers someone else's material. So ASCAP would be leaving Segovia alone (assuming the performance actually included something under copyright which is not true for much of the classical repertoire) and bothering the venue owner.

If a venue owner hosts an open mic but asks for originals only, no covers, you know they are not paying royalties for copyrighted music that is performed live in their venue.

Also note that permission to record a performance or play a recording are not necessarily granted by by paying performance royalties

 

[Coop47]

Having musicians not "members" of a band playing where they can't be seen has been going on for a long time. (Cue the guy that played keyboards for The Who for decades going back to the early 70's!! He usually sat behind a scrim in the wings...just off-stage) It has a lot to do branding....and w/ $$$. Just like a tv or movie role w/ or w/o scripted lines. You're either payed as an extra, or a credited role. Musicians either get a member touring share....or nightly scale.

Yep, thought that was a curious decision too. Meanwhile having Billy Preston on stage didn't seem to hurt the Stones around that time (nor does the small army they travel around with now).

It would seem to me that live music is easier and more fun to play and watch when you see everyone playing. Hiding musicians at a concert - whatever they're getting paid - seems ridiculous to me.

 

[Rocky]

Having musicians not "members" of a band playing where they can't be seen has been going on for a long time. (Cue the guy that played keyboards for The Who for decades going back to the early 70's!! He usually sat behind a scrim in the wings...just off-stage) It has a lot to do branding....and w/ $$$. Just like a tv or movie role w/ or w/o scripted lines. You're either payed as an extra, or a credited role. Musicians either get a member touring share....or nightly scale.

Yep. Glen Buxton had an off-stage guitarist playing at least some of his parts on the last Alice Cooper Band tour or two. Probably the parts that Steve Hunter ghosted on record, before they started giving him album credits.

What I think is super-cheesy is a band like Green Day having a second guitar player completely visible from the stage - so you know he's there, but not illuminated.

 

[Westerly Wood]

I remember when Nirvana added a 2nd guitarist, I think he was in other bands etc, for live shows, including that MTV live show.

 

[Midnight Toker]

I remember when Nirvana added a 2nd guitarist, I think he was in other bands etc, for live shows, including that MTV live show.

Pat Smear. I think he was also included as a full fledged member of the Foo Fighters not too long before their drummer recently passed away.

 

[mellowgerman]

I was a big Rammstein fan back in my teens. Though I never got to see them play live, I did seek out a ton of live performance videos, because their live stage show is so wild. That said, I would be very surprised if their whole show was pre-recorded. If you listen closely, there are plenty of little imperfections (or real humanness) in their live performances and clear difference in tones of the instruments on stage VS. those on the album recordings... which I suppose could be intentional to make it seem NOT pre-recorded, but that seems to defeat the point of faking a live performance. No part of their music is difficult to play. Even as a beginner I was able to learn their guitar and bass lines. The real attraction to their music is the heaviness of the riffs and the very growly low vocals, not any kind of complexity.

Regarding pre-recorded music in general though -- I think any musical aspect should actually be performed on stage or just left out of the live performance. At least, if I am paying for a ticket, I will most definitely be disappointed if there is a backing-track of any kind. I understand that there may be elements of a recording that can't be reproduced on stage (like symphony orchestra or choir accompaniment) but come on! You're an artist right? Be creative and work within your means! I would much rather that part be adapted to one of the instruments actually on stage or just leave it out completely. As soon as you introduce a recording of an instrument into a live performance, it creates an artificial structure for the song. I think it just cheapens the live performance, like musical training-wheels. The exception here would be sampled sounds that are being implemented artistically/tastefully, like the cash register in "Money" and things of that nature.

While living in Nashville back in 2013, my housemate was a professional hired-gun drummer, who incidentally had played with some pretty big names in the country genre. He invited me to play bass on a pretty well-paying, recurring gig. Easy bass lines, local area gigs, fun group of guys, etc. Unfortunately, I had to turn it down when he said that the band performs to an in-ear click track. Sorry. I won't do it. I can't help it, but that is an artificial element of live music that I want no part in... I don't hold it against anyone who does it (unless I paid for a ticket). I realize a lot of people probably don't care, but it just feels wrong to me personally. A musician who is being paid to play, should either be capable of playing in time and in tune on their own accord or be honest and just let the performance be what it is.

 

[lungimsam]

I get the not wanting to use a click track. The drummer is the time keeper I want to listen to.
I’m kinda surprised bassists and drummers arent mostly non existent now, outside of niche music, as it seems thst in mainstream music there is no call for creative bass playing anymore and drums can be programmed. And the low end of keys these days can crush bass tone and make us sound like tin cans in comparison to their low end should they choose to.

 

[fronobulax]

I understand that there may be elements of a recording that can't be reproduced on stage

<veer>

A long time ago Kathy Dalton had signed to Zappa's label and was touring with him as the opening act. She played one song live that resonated with me so much that I sought out and purchased the album. What hooked me was the vocal harmonies. I was very disappointed in the recording. The original recording featured female vocalists doing the harmony. But the live version featured the boys in the band who sang and played their respective instruments. It was the male voices below the lead that engaged me

 

[Midnight Toker]

^ bands playing to a click track don't bother me. We live in a multimedia world. Light shows have been augmented by video screens, and in many cases, everything has to be in sync. There are other uses for click tracks (which at most should only be heard by the drummer/bassist, if not just the drummer). Zappa used on on his latter tours as he recorded to multitrack nightly, then mixed and matched individual instruments from any given night of a tour to create some super versions on records....with amazing results!

 

[mellowgerman]

^ bands playing to a click track don't bother me. We live in a multimedia world. Light shows have been augmented by video screens, and in many cases, everything has to be in sync. There are other uses for click tracks (which at most should only be heard by the drummer/bassist, if not just the drummer). Zappa used on on his latter tours as he recorded to multitrack nightly, then mixed and matched individual instruments from any given night of a tour to create some super versions on records....with amazing results!

Nothing but admiration for Mr. Zappa from me and I can understand why he may have made that choice in that scenario. When a click track is implemented just to be in sync with a light show or video screen though, it's definitely not my kind of performance. Again though, different strokes for different folks!