Quality of Chinese Imports

[chazzan]

Over the weekend I went into a well know classical shop in Illinois, to talk to the luthier about making my 1979 Guild Mark IV play more in tune with itself (making a new saddle) Most of the guitars he sells ate 5,000+, a little too rich for my budget.

He had a Kenny Hill flamanco guitar (the New World Series) imported from China for about 1,600. It blew away the Guild I hate to admit, tone playability ect. I heard that the American Classicals Guild Gibson and MARTIN are overbuilt which is why they have a more "clunky" sound.

Wanted all your opinions about Chinese imports- supposedly this was made in a small shop in China, where the workers are well trained and the guitar is mostly made by hand- the quality IMO is as good as the American new Taylor, Martin, National I've seen which is very suprizing for me. If this was am American made guitar I would have bought it, but I am hesitant because of the origin. I know I should not be (I can't believe it's as good a guitar as it looks/crafted and sounds), and judge a guitar solely on it's merits, but in this case I want all the facts before I buy.

Has anyone else had experience with the quality of Chinese made instruments?

 

[Ridgemont]

Yo chazzan,

I do not have much experience with classical instruments. I do have a Sigma by Martin which was build in Korea. I can say that it is a nice wall decoration but sounds pretty cheap and poor quality. It was very inexpensive to begin with. I have played a few other classical guitars over the years (don't remember the brands) and most of them were much more impressive.

I do have a little more experience with steel string guitars.... If you were to take all labels and identifying marks off the guitars and do a blind study, my money would be on more people not being able to tell the difference in build quality and playability between an American guitar and it's import (I would like to emphasize high end import). I will admit that there are imports out there that do not impress me, but certain ones I have tried are pretty nice. I have found that GADs, Epiphone Masterbilts, and Recording Kings to have exceptional build quality overall in addition to playability and tone. I have played more GADs than the others and have found a few duds here and there, but hey I have also found those same issues with Martins, Gibsons, American Guilds, Taylors, etc. In order to cut costs, I would assume that the quality of woods is not the same as on the more expensive American guitars. I do believe that the workers are well trained and very talented. This is evidenced by the product you see in the store. The stigma in all of this comes from the companies desire to cut production costs while still staying competitive. Shipping production to China (where there is questionable working conditions/wages and labor abuse) allows the company to reach their goal. Also the idea that American jobs were lost in the process doesn't sit well with many.

So at the end of the day, I sit down and think about the guitars I have. I did not have much money but wanted a great guitar I could afford. I bought my GAD because of its tone, playability, build quality, and overall good looks because I could not afford the Martin equivalent that cost 4X that amount. I do not regret my purchase, but I do not plan on buying another Chinese import.

 

[Russell Letson]

There's no reason a Chinese-made instrument can't be as good as any made anywhere else in the world. I've been monitoring Eastman archtops for years (and own one), and they're more than respectable. The flat-tops that have started coming out of their factory--Martin-style designs--are also quite good, as are the Blueridge Martin-style small guitars. The Guild GAD models I've played are better than most of the 80's product I saw from Westerly. (I realize that my take on post-1970s Guilds is a minority position, but still. . . .)

Several years back I had a talk with the guy who set up Gibson's Epiphone production in China, and he had plenty of respect for the people he dealt with there--they were interested in satisfying their American customers, and the examples I played were quite good for their price point (a step or two up from entry-level), and decent, playable instruments by any standard.

Labor costs (and probably environmental regulation costs) are low, but neither the Epiphone nor the Eastman operations qualify as sweatshops--the Eastman factory (which was featured in a YouTube video I saw a few months back) looks like any modern factory, and the workers look and act like woodworkers anywhere. You don't get quality product out of an oppressed, abused workforce, and the best Chinese factory-made guitars are good products. I'm not familiar with small-shop operations in China, but if they are following the Japanese pattern, we can expect Chinese craftmen to figure out how to meet Western expectations for a more refined instrument. There's an enormous pool of talent and industriousness there, it's hungry for business, and its overhead is lower than ours.

 

[NateD]

There are many things to consider when buying a guitar, but I don't believe that country of origin is a deciding factor. A large brand's secondary label, i.e. Epiphone vs. Gibson, will probably be a lesser quality because the intent is to create a budget version of the higher-quality first label. I've never played an Epiphone that matches up to its Gibson counterpart, but that isn't because of its build was in another country, it's because the general build quality was intended to be lower. It's more mass produced than hand crafted.

On the other hand, when comparing Alvarez guitars (not sure if they're made in US or elsewhere) to Alvarez-Yairi, the Japan-based Yairis are universally of better quality. This is because they're hand crafted in a workshop designed to turn out fine guitars, not cheap mass-market ones. The quality of the guitar doesn't depend on country of origin, but the company/luthier of origin. If a guitar is good, why make any further judgements based on context?

 

[taabru45]

I have and8-9 year old blond Korean Epiphone Sheriton. and would put it up against any of the 335s from then or since then for workmanship quality, and better in some areas for sure... like the ends of the frets...I bought a couple of old Gibby pups and if you were blind folded I'd bet you'd like the Epi, at least as well as the Gibson...Steffan

 

[alpep]

the quality of the made in china stuff is getting better all the time. usually it is the materials that holds them back.

I still would rather buy a USA made product and I find it sad that kids today cannot afford something made in the USA

 

[Oubaas]

I own a few Chinese imports.

The Guild GAD-30 is a good guitar, nice tone, good playability, excellent workmanship. I do like the tone of my Martin 000 a little better, but not by very much. I'd buy the GAD-30 again.

I also have a Guild GAD-40C which I chose after playing it side by side with an HD-28 and a D-18. I saved a lot of money that day. It's a great dreadnought and I like the cutaway for that upper fret work.

I also have a couple Epiphone Masterbilts, a DR-500P and an AJ-500MN. The AJ-500MN might be the most bang for the buck in the guitar world. Amazing tone, great workmanship, and way under $500. It's no match for my '58 Gibson Country Western (pre-62 slope shoulder type, think natural finish Southern Jumbo) but for under $500, it's pretty amazing! It could humble a lot of much more expensive guitars.

As for classicals, I have one. And it was handbuilt in Spain. Not much help there, I'm afraid.

Overall, I've had pretty positive experiences with the Chinese imports. But I still buy American made and European guitars as well.

The imports are nice if you want to add a certain voice to your palette without spending a lot of money. The DR-500P has been tiding me over in the maple dreadnought slot for a couple of years and now I finally have a Dove on the way.

Cheers!

Rick... :wink:

 

[chazzan]

Thanks.......... It is a shame IMO that there are not many American made Classicals that are under $5,000. I would want to buy American if at all possible, but I have Not found any classical/flamenco guitars in the 1-2 thousand dollar range. Taylor makes a classical, but it does not sound or play like a REAL classical guitar (only IMO here).

This guitar is from a small shop in China with woods that are high grade, the woods may be shipped from the US. The company is based in Claifornia- their us guitars are 6,000+ I am torn- I never thought I would consider an import (not since I was in high school) but this guitar sounds really good.

At the end of the day...... I will plan to go back to the store at the end of the week- if the guitar is not sold (they will not hold it for me until Friday) I will play it again- if it sounds that good- I'll buy it. You comments help!

On another note (pun intended) anyone want to buy a Guild Classical- whether or not I buy this guitar I will sell the Mark IV. Selling for $525 to LTG members w/o shipping I live in the Chicago area. PM me for details if you are interested it is in VG+ condition.

 

[jcwu]

Being a Chinese import myself (actually Taiwanese to be exact), I do feel a little bit of ethnic pride seeing the quality of these imports go up. But... foreign-made is still foreign-made - it's a stigma that neither instruments nor people can fully escape, unfortunately. That being said:

He had a Kenny Hill flamanco guitar (the New World Series) imported from China for about 1,600. It blew away the Guild I hate to admit, tone playability ect.

I don't know if I could ever bring myself to pay over $500 for an import. Attribute it to previously-mentioned stigma, or whatever, but I just couldn't. But I'm glad to hear that there's a market for the import instruments, because that will only lend room for improvement. And it could be that I just haven't caught up with inflated prices from this past decade, because when I think of imports, I still think of the $99 toy-ish guitars available at Target or Walmart.

Has anyone else had experience with the quality of Chinese made instruments?

I just bought a used Epiphone Masterbilt DR-500R. Nice instrument, not what I'd come to expect from imports. Finish is a bit rough - parts of the satin finish feels like sandpaper. But it sounds good, and at the end of the day, that's really what matters most.

 

[Telenator]

The quality of Chinese imports has improved dramatically over the past 5 years. Bear in mind though, that there are still "price point" levels of quality among the imports. The areas where I feel the pacific rim stuff is still lacking is the details. There's a certain feel to a US Made guitar that is robust and refined in the details. The import guitars still have blurry lines between the binding and the neck, and fuzzy side dots and a general lack of harmony in the "look" of the finished instrument. Again, a lot of this has to do with price point.

The imports are closing he gap all the time. I still feel that they look excellent for 10 feet away but reveal a certain "cheapness" when examined closely.

 

[count savage]

I have a new Chinese-made Epiphone Firebird electric that is better in every way than the American-made Gibson Firebird I had in 1978. A new Gibson Firebird goes for $1700. The Epi was around $550, with case. In fact, I've only bought Chinese-made electrics for the last few years because the necks are always straight, straighter than just about any Fender or Gibson neck electric neck I ever had, and at one time or other I had every major model of both Fender and Gibson. In other ways, they're not as nice and more cheaply made, but pop in some good pick ups and what's left? You've got a straight neck, the body's made of the same wood and now you've got good pick-ups. Acoustics probably are trickier. I do know that if someone is looking for a 'step-up' acoustic guitar from, say, a $299 Yamaha, which are actually great starter acoustics, I point them to an Epi Masterbilt, which are really good acoustics for the price. Stunning really. I'll end this sermon by saying that my flagship guitar, a purchased new Tacoma-built Guild F512 w/D-Tar needs a neck re-set. It has never been out of the house and only played sparely. My luthier says, sometimes they make mistakes. So it has to go back to Guild. He won't even work on it until Guild fixes it. My gut feeling is that this would not have occurred in a Chinese guitar factory. Oh well. I'll still buy American and/or North American made acoustics as my first choice guitars if I can afford them. The best of them ARE the best.

 

[Russell Letson]

Telenator--Have you seen the Eastmans? There's nothing blurry or unrefined about the workmanship on my AR-805. Of course, the Eastman archtops aren't budget-line or entry-level instruments, which is where one generally sees lack of refinement. Nor do the Blueridge flat-tops I've seen look or feel like cheap guitars.

 

[Ridgemont]

Bear in mind though, that there are still "price point" levels of quality among the imports. The areas where I feel the pacific rim stuff is still lacking is the details.

I have found that the quality of details is dependent on what price point you are in. The one guitar that was the worst I have seen so far was an Epiphone SJ200. The neck was crooked, the frets were loose and coming off, the trim was blurry, not to mention the sound. The funny thing is that GC was still trying to sell it at regular price. I have seen Fender acoustics, Ibanez, and others to have shoddy workmanship, but these I would consider to be in the lower price range. If you go to the higher price range of Chinese imports (brands ranging from $600 to over $1000) you get a lot more attention to detail. While there are brands I haven't tried like Eastman and Blueridge, I can vouch for GADs, Recording Kings, and Masterbilts. I will omit Masterbilts just because the appointments are minimal in addition to the stripped down satin finish. The GADs and Recording Kings I have seen have always been impressive. I have had 2 GAD 30s and have always been amazed at the details. From binding to frets being flush with the neck to smoothly sanded down braces inside the guitar, I have to say that the GADs I have owned have gone through some tough quality control. Of course I am talking about guitars from the upper echelon of Chinese imports.

 

[adorshki]

But... foreign-made is still foreign-made - it's a stigma that neither instruments nor people can fully escape, unfortunately.

Agreed. I have to admit when I started searching to replace a stolen Fender acoustic back in '97 my primary condition was that it HAD to be American made. It was primarily a pride thing, related to the fact that the steel string guitar was (is) quintessentially an American icon. I came to Guild on the recommendation of a friend after experiencing the Fender/Gibson/Martin sticker shock for domestic-built product. At that time the imports absolutely did not have the quality of domestics (although my Korean Fender was very nice) and I was sure they'd never be heirloom instruments for reasons explained below. What I WAS worried about was the growing demand for quality american wood in asia and that at some point there might not BE ANY affordable domestic built instruments.
I see a parallel to this stigma against imports in the collector car world: there's a definite school of thought that no matter what the variations or definitions might be, only an american built car can truly qualify as a "muscle car". I'm a MAJOR fan of first-generation Mazda RX-7s but I have yet to see any Japanese performance car cross the block at Barrett-Jackson, even off-camera. I'm not sure their time will ever come. I also don't think the average Harley Davidson buyer would buy a foreign made Harley, at least not with a Harley logo on it. Not even the so called "wanna be's", because that american-made performance mystique is part of the definition of what they "wannabe". So while I have no actual prejudice against import product and I think some of it really IS world class, I think the stigma you refer to has an effect on resale values which lowers their collectability/desirability and creates a kind of self-perpetuating stigma in itself.
An aside to Fronobulax: this sure sounds like a branding identity related theory doesn't it?

 

[tele4tone]

I had an Epiphone Masterbilt AJ500 that sounded great. I did have to get a proper saddle and nut made for it. So after about $500 it was a nice acoustic. I still sold it when I found a D30 for a decent price.

I say buy used, get the Luthier work done, and have an instrument with character. OR.... sell me your used stuff REALLY cheap and go buy that other stuff.


Jeff

 

[fronobulax]

An aside to Fronobulax: this sure sounds like a branding identity related theory doesn't it?

Yep. Wasn't sure what I had this time around so I was laying low ;-)

 

[Telenator]

Telenator--Have you seen the Eastmans? There's nothing blurry or unrefined about the workmanship on my AR-805. Of course, the Eastman archtops aren't budget-line or entry-level instruments, which is where one generally sees lack of refinement. Nor do the Blueridge flat-tops I've seen look or feel like cheap guitars.

Yes, and they're nice but they're also at a higher price point than the cheap stuff which is the point I was making. They're (in my opinion) not great like a Santa Cruz, Breedlove, or other high end American guitar, but they are very nice. Now, Eastwood, that's a different story. Those things are fire wood man!

 

[Thunderface]

My experience with Chinese import guitars consists of five Epiphones and two on the newly reissued Hagstroms and they've all be great. I think Epiphone's quality really went up a notch when they opened their dedicated factory in Quindao (sp?), but I've had Epis from other Chinese factories that have been great as well.

I've also got a Michael Kelly Hourglass made in Korea, and it is outstanding quality wise.

 

[Tony Burns]

Over the weekend I went into a well know classical shop in Illinois, to talk to the luthier about making my 1979 Guild Mark IV play more in tune with itself (making a new saddle) Most of the guitars he sells ate 5,000+, a little too rich for my budget.

He had a Kenny Hill flamanco guitar (the New World Series) imported from China for about 1,600. It blew away the Guild I hate to admit, tone playability ect. I heard that the American Classicals Guild Gibson and MARTIN are overbuilt which is why they have a more "clunky" sound.

Wanted all your opinions about Chinese imports- supposedly this was made in a small shop in China, where the workers are well trained and the guitar is mostly made by hand- the quality IMO is as good as the American new Taylor, Martin, National I've seen which is very suprizing for me. If this was am American made guitar I would have bought it, but I am hesitant because of the origin. I know I should not be (I can't believe it's as good a guitar as it looks/crafted and sounds), and judge a guitar solely on it's merits, but in this case I want all the facts before I buy.

Has anyone else had experience with the quality of Chinese made instruments?

Chazzan -i really think the question should either be directed at production guitars or luthier built guitars .Most of us see more of the production or sadly " spit out guitars " that are swamping our country in the low to medium quality variety . Their are small builders or small top end shops as their are in other corners of the world .But their reputations get slammed because of that countries over all poor quality image . Sadly the main reason most guitars are made over their is because of cheap labor and that companies make more money this way- it use to be like this in Japan in the early 60's to late 70's ( which has changed- as your aware ) -I buy american made guitars because Im a believer in keeping the US economy afloat - and other americans buy my work- so i do my best to buy theirs .I also have seen the used prices on american built guitars hold their value better than guitars from China .

 

[Taylor Martin Guild]

Nothing sings like an American build acoustic guitar but,
there are some very nice guitars coming out of China and other Pac Rim factories.
I have owned a GAD Guild, a Recording King and a Blueridge that were all very good build and sounding guitars.
I still own the Blueridge and of course my 1980 Yamaha L20A which is an outstanding guitar.

I sure wish that these guitars were around when I was a young kid looking for a good guitar.