Overtones…trying to understand

[Rayk]

Wow! Thanks everybody for your input!
I threw together a quick and dirty video trying to illustrate what I was talking about in my OP. Maybe I’m confusing overtones with sustain, or maybe they go hand-in-hand?

Anyway, I hope I can get this video to post here. Since I have neither recording experience nor equipment, I had to use my still camera set on video mode. Please forgive me if this is too long and boring and please disregard the sloppy playing – I was just noodling stuff for illustration purposes. I set the camera very close to the guitar to make sure I picked up the audio and was too focused on not knocking it over. Plus my calluses kept snagging strings. (I know…excuses, excuses!)

***By the way, if you take a look at poser’s video then scroll up and down on Al’s harmonics diagram quickly, you get a momentary seizure :cower:.

Al: Ripper is the bomb! :applouse:

Sitka spruce top, EIR back/sides.
7 month old John Pearse New Mediums – phosphor bronze.

Very nice sir ! You have a good guitar I want one ! Someday lol

 

[fronobulax]

All harmonics are overtones, but there are overtones that are not harmonics.

Sustain refers to how long the sound is audible. Depending upon a whole lot of factors the sustain may be different for harmonics, non-harmonic overtones and the "primary". People who play a lot of notes, fast, need to manage sustain or they talk about sounding muddy. On the other hand, even from the days before effects, musicians would sometimes use a long sustain to create music. What they play now is designed to compliment what they played seconds ago and is still audible. To the extent that sustain and echo are similar you get this a lot with choral music composed for and/or performed in a great space, such as a traditional cathedral.

If you think of the "richness" of a chord as being determined by how many notes, non-harmonic overtones can produce rich chords because they are notes that were not in the original chord as played.

On a simplistic level when moving from a 6 to a 12 string you are adding a whole lot of harmonics. So when you hear things on the 6 that remind you of a 12 those are overtones.

I've had coffee and can't shut up.

 

[davismanLV]

I've had coffee and can't shut up.

HAAAAA HAAAAA!!! It's all good. More information to take in while I drink MY coffee... :encouragement:

 

[DV-72 NT]

JohnW63 quote: Overtones: Multiple tones playing nicely together to make the sound more interesting and complex. The difference between a note and a chord.

kostask quote: There isn't necessarily any correlation between overtones and sustain. In most commonly available guitars, more overtones generally results in longer sustain. However, if you deviate from commonly available guitars, as in going to a ladder braced guitars vs. the common X brace, sustain is shortened, while the overtones remain.

fronobulax quote: On a simplistic level when moving from a 6 to a 12 string you are adding a whole lot of harmonics. So when you hear things on the 6 that remind you of a 12 those are overtones.


Thanks guys! By putting together all the above and digesting I think I'm starting to get it. I've always known what sustain basics are, I just didn't know where overtones (may) fit in with it. I DO appreciate everyone's responses and they reinforce my feelings that the LTG family is the best place to go to get the most knowledgeable guitar info without fear of judgement!


Rayk quote: Very nice sir ! You have a good guitar I want one ! Someday lol
-I thank you sir.

fronobulax quote: I've had coffee and can't shut up.
-No need to shut up, I enjoy your essays! :eagerness:

And...
kostask quote: As I have often said before, it is the overall sound of the guitar that is important, in relation to the music that is being played that is the end goal.
...bottom line is this is the quote of the day!

 

[JohnW63]

As a group, we may have just taught something ! And ourselves, at the same time.

Talking about sound with written words is hard, because we all hear, feel, and think differently. Must be the same for the foodies, talking about how things taste. I like the beginning of the Pixar movie, Ratatouille. The lead character said something tasted " Lightningy " .

 

[dreadnut]

I hate to judge...before all the facts are in...

 

[Rayk]

Overtones…trying to understand

May be a novice question, but I am trying to understand what guitar overtones are. Since I am not academically inclined I am not too interested in actual frequency formulas which I’ve found searching this subject, but rather a simple explanation of what overtones sound like when chords and notes are played. (Maybe a link with examples?)

I’ve never been too good at using commonly accepted descriptive terms in describing the sound of my guitars and in reading many reviews the term “overtones” (whether good or bad) seems to pop up. I think I have a handle on the harmonics (such as used in tuning or Steve Howe’s beginning of Roundabout) but how does it apply to chords?

It seems from what I’ve found is that overtones can be a good thing or a bad thing depending on the listener. I just want to understand a little better when someone describes a guitar as having “wonderful overtones” or “muddy overtones” or "... overtones".

I’ve noticed lately that when I sneeze and my Guild DV is sitting close to me, the strings ring in a chime-like fashion (I do sneeze loudly due to a medical issue that requires me to “not hold back”, LOL). In fact, when I first started noticing this while in my basement I thought the doorbell upstairs was ringing. Have not noticed this at all with my Larrivée jumbo. Could this be related to overtones or something entirely different, ex.: strings, top vibration, etc.?

Omg ! I’m here reading my own words researching one of my guitar problems with this same issue ! In my case runaway over tones that’s are harsh and actually hurt my ear when I hit the note/notes . Can’t believe I wrote this don’t even remember it !
Someone must of hacked my account.

 

[Br1ck]

The physics have already been discussed. Real world playing for me is this: What makes playing Neil Young songs on a rosewood dread glorious is the harmonic richness of those ringing overtones, coupled with great palm muting. It's like a damping pedal on a piano. What sounds good on single note lines, can get muddy quickly with chords. A mahogany guitar can mitigate this, as can a mahogany top. Overtones can be good or bad, depending on speed and style. When I play quick passages on my Guild D 35, they sound cleaner than on my Martin D 35. Neither is cleaner than my 00 15 12 fret. So you need to decide which works best, and a full toolbox is always good.

 

[HeyMikey]

This is why you need more than one guitar and why some guitars or makers in general don’t appeal to a person.

For example, I had a DDMCE, fabulous guitar to play and behold. However it was built to minimize overtones for Doyle’s (very) fast style of play. Built so that each note wouldn’t layer, linger and muddy up the sound. I found that for my much slower style of play I needed some level of overtone otherwise it sounded too sterile. Then again you take an A50 flat top, many Martin’s, or a boutique guitar with a lot of overtones meant for slower fingerstyle where playing fast or strumming hard is a no-go.

The real appeal of Guild guitars to me is that they tend to have the right balance between the fundamental note and controlled overtones. They tend to be very versatile and not one trick ponies. For a singer they also tend to support rather than muddy up the mix. Now of course certain models swing towards more or less overtones vs one another but by and large they are well balanced.

 

[Rayk]

Yeah this guitar has been a problem for me from day one . Between the sustain and reverb of the body combined with harmonics or sympathy notes that open strings ring out gives off unwanted tones . Mics don’t pick it up it’s mostly the players ear which suffers .

going to find a new luthier local that actually builds more then repairs to see if it can be corrected but my hopes are small on the front . Lol

 

[Br1ck]

When I move from my Martin D 35 to my Guild D 35, the Guild at first sounds lifeless, and much is dead strings. After a string change and a day or two, it sounds really good. It takes a good deal of experience to not let all the lushness of modern guitars influence what you buy. The undoubtebly great sounding D 18 Authentics are just a step too far for me. A D 18GE is not. But lush sells guitars. A modern J 45 is not at all like a pre 1950.