Original Dynasonic Starfire Neck Pickup Orientation Question

[txbumper57]

I have been looking at a few 1960-1963 Starfires lately with Original Dearmond Dynasonic style Single coil pickups in them. I have noticed some differences in the orientation of the Neck pickups. Almost every bridge pickup I see has the adjustment screws on the top or neck side of the pickup and the magnet poles on the bottom of the pickup face closest to the bridge. Normally I see the Neck pickup orientated with the adjustment screws on the bridge side or bottom of the pickup face and the magnetic poles on the top of the pickup face closest to the neck. In this manner the pickups appear to be mirror images of each other. This is the same configuration that my Custom shop Dynas are mounted in my Black Falcon and my Dearmond 2000's are mounted in my X160 Rockabilly.

However, Some of the Vintage Starfires I have seen lately have the Neck pickup in the same orientation as the bridge pickup with the adjustment screws closest to the neck and the magnetic poles on the lower face of the pickup closest to the bridge. I thought it might just be an isolated incident so I looked through Hans's book and found several examples with the pickups mounted this way. In this configuration wouldn't the neck pickup be mounted backwards? As the pole pieces all appear to be the same length and are adjustable would this have an adverse effect on tone or would the only difference be the neck pickup magnets picking up the string vibration signal 1/2" lower on the neck pickup? Just curious to know what the difference is and if the Vintage Starfires actually left the factory this way or if it was done at a later date. Thanks,

TX

 

[txbumper57]

Here are a few pictures to reference the orientation of the Neck pickups.

Regular mounting of the neck pickup

Backwards Mounting of the neck pickup

 

[Walter Broes]

It doesn't matter, and once you measure the actual difference in location you realize it's so small you probably wouldn't hear it. Maybe it could help a tiny little bit to have the magnets facing the bridge on the neck pickup to gain a little clarity, or the opposite on the lead pickup to make it a little mellower. But like I said, the difference in location is SO small that hardly anyone would notice if they weren't looking.

 

[txbumper57]

Thanks for the response Walter, as always your input is much appreciated. Any opinion on if they were originally installed at the factory that way?

 

[Walter Broes]

I don't know. I wouldn't be surprised if some guitars made it out with the pickups mounted "in reverse", but I honestly don't know.

 

[ronbo]

I wonder if the reverse mounting is in part to make the coils cancel hum in the middle position? My Gretsch Jet with Dyna's is done that way and I've done this on P90's that weren't reverse wound and it worked....

 

[JohnW63]

Are these pickups, on this Duane Eddy that I found on YouTube, the ones you are talking about ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WCbF2rrFwG8

 

[txbumper57]

Are these pickups, on this Duane Eddy that I found on YouTube, the ones you are talking about ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WCbF2rrFwG8

Yup, Those are the original Dearmond pickups sometimes referred to as Original Dynasonics. Gretsch also used them back in the 50's but their version had Black faces as opposed to Guild's White face versions. Seymour Duncan Custom Shop makes some Reissues which I have a set of on a Black Falcon and they are Awesome. While the Duncans are really close you can't beat the original Dearmonds for everything from Twang to melt your face off rock with awesome Blues in the middle.

 

[JohnW63]

Which means the originals are expensive and hard to find, I would guess. Is the hole pattern a match for anything new ? What I mean is, are there pickups that could be swapped out FOR the old style with out messing up the top ?

 

[JohnW63]

Is THESE them ?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/dearmond-guitar-pickups-/182061520726?hash=item2a63b65756:g:un4AAOSwvFZW70Sy

I would guess not, as I later saw a Vintage one for sale by its self for twice that.

 

[txbumper57]

Which means the originals are expensive and hard to find, I would guess. Is the hole pattern a match for anything new ? What I mean is, are there pickups that could be swapped out FOR the old style with out messing up the top ?

There was a run of pickups that were made in the late 90's/early 2000's That Fender had a hand in making. First there was the Dearmond 2K pickups which were the same shape and footprint as the originals but built more like a P90. Then there was the Dearmond 2000's which were a Redesigned Modern take on the Original Dearmonds without the long magnet poles. The 2k's are found on some Cheaper Gretsch Guitars and some Dearmond Guitars from the 90's. The 2000's were found on the American Made Guild X160 Rockabilly models. I have one of the X160s and the Newer 2000's are a considerably tamed down version of the originals. Both the Recent 2k's and the 2000's have the same Footprint as the originals but they are flat on the back making them not as deep as the originals. The originals have long pole magnets that extend 3/4"-1" below the mounting ring of the pickup requiring the guitar to be Routed through the top for the pickups to fit.

Gretsch currently makes Dynasonic pickups for their Professional Series Guitars that are designed after the originals magnets and all. They only come in black face unfortunately and they are rated around 8K for the neck and the bridge which makes the bridge a bit weak on output. These run around $120 used a piece to $200 New. These are what came stock on my Black Falcon and what I replaced with the Duncan Custom Shop Versions. The originals were closer to 10k-12k for both neck and bridge.

Seymour Duncan Custom Shop makes a reproduction of the originals that are around 10K-11K output each. You can have them custom wound to whatever specs you want but those are their vintage specs. These are the pickups that the Gretsch USA Custom Shop uses on their High Dollar Guitars. The magnets are like the originals needing the body to be routed and these are as close to the originals as you can get in tone, specs, and design. As far as I know they don't offer white face versions only black face. You might be able to get some white face ones from them but I'll bet it would take awhile. These can be bought new for around $450 for the set. I have these in my Black Falcon and I love them.

TV Jones makes their version of the Originals called the T-Armond pickups. They are wound to 8K-9K for the neck and 11K-12K for the bridge making them more balanced when running both pickups. These are great pickups but they don't have the Bite that the originals or the Duncan Custom Shops have. In comparison they sound like they have a bit of compression built into them. These are now being used by Gretsch on their new Premium model Professional series guitars. I believe they are available with white and Black faces and run around $160-$175 each depending on the finish. If you go to tvjones.com they have sound clips up of their T-Armond series through different amps.

That is about it as far as I know. There may be boutique builders out there making them but I haven't seen any of lately. For a price comparison I just saw a set of Originals sell on Ebay for around $375 each for the bridge and neck separately.

The Gretsch, Duncan Custom Shop, and TV Jones models all have adjustable pole pieces just like the originals.

 

[txbumper57]

Is THESE them ?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/dearmond-guitar-pickups-/182061520726?hash=item2a63b65756:g:un4AAOSwvFZW70Sy

I would guess not, as I later saw a Vintage one for sale by its self for twice that.

That looks like a set of Dearmond 2000's. The modern redesigned version that are lower output without the punch of the originals.

UPDATE: These are THE 2K MODELS NOT THE 2000'S, pictures Explain below.

 

[txbumper57]

This is what the back of the Originals Look Like, You can compare these to the Newer version of the 2000's.

Original Back

Newer Dearmond 2K back

Newer Dearmond 2000 Back

 

[parker_knoll]

That looks like a set of Dearmond 2000's. The modern redesigned version that are lower output without the punch of the originals.

no, those are the 2K (one of which I recently bought and actually rather like - it does its own thing).

see here for useful pics:

http://www.gretsch-talk.com/threads/i-was-wrong-dearmond-2k-2000-are-not-the-same-pickups.49632/

 

[txbumper57]

no, those are the 2K (one of which I recently bought and actually rather like - it does its own thing).

see here for useful pics:

http://www.gretsch-talk.com/threads/i-was-wrong-dearmond-2k-2000-are-not-the-same-pickups.49632/

Thanks Parker, It was late last night and I got my 2000 and 2K pics mixed up. I fixed the pictures in the post above.

 

[Walter Broes]

I wonder if the reverse mounting is in part to make the coils cancel hum in the middle position? My Gretsch Jet with Dyna's is done that way and I've done this on P90's that weren't reverse wound and it worked....

Nope, turning a pickup upside down could theoritically achieve that. But turning it around with the poles still facing up doesn't change the polarity or the direction of the coil.

 

[kakerlak]

Nope, turning a pickup upside down could theoritically achieve that. But turning it around with the poles still facing up doesn't change the polarity or the direction of the coil.

Right, b/c if you think of the coil as being a clockwise (or counter) wind, rotating it clockwise (or counter) won't change the direction in which it's wound.

 

[txbumper57]

The Newer 2000 models in my X160 are Hum canceling in the middle position and I'm not that big of a fan. They are already reasonably quiet pickups so it is kind of Overkill to have them reverse wound, It takes a lot of the character of the pickups away in the middle slot. I made sure when ordering the Duncan Custom Shop version for my Black Falcon that they were both wound with the same polarity for that extra punch in the middle position, Love them that way. Probably one of the reasons I am drawn to the original models so much.

TX

 

[parker_knoll]

Slight OT, but those vintage ones that were for sale recently were ripped from a perfectly serviceable 1960 SF-II. That's the first year of issue. The seller now selling the gutted husk claims it's straight and plays well. Basically it was more economic to sell off the pickups and harp tailpiece and let the rest go to trash. To me it's like shark fishing: you kill the shark just for the fin.

Someone said previously on this forum "but this means other guitars come to life when this one is killed". No it doesn't, it means someone has a spare set of pickups to try when they can be bothered and harp tailpiece to replace that stupid upgrade someone did in a previous life. You go from three working guitars to two, and unless the original piece was mashed up (which this one wasn't) you lose an instrument with total historical integrity.

 

[JohnW63]

Do these people do the parts harvesting on other brands, like Les Pauls or Gibson ES335s or Gretches ?