NGD: F-212XL Standard

[chazmo]

Yup, I think you're right on, Charlie. I think that I was confused... whether a center strip is used or not, the block of wood is built up into a lamination before the carver makes a neck out of it. What I don't know is whether any solid blocks of wood are used for single-piece necks.

So, one thing I forgot to mention folks that's new... Maybe they only do this on the 12er, but we know that the dual-action truss rod was introduced even at the end of Tacoma production for the 12ers... My F-212XL came with a truss-rod adjustment tool inside a cool little Guild baggie:

 

[flagstaffcharlie]

Awesome guitar! Congrats! It's nice to see a new USA Guild version of an old USA Guild. This is a dream 12-string!

 

[kyguild]

Great looking guitar, Chazmo!! I can just imagine how great it sounds. I can remember when I got my 212XL many moons ago, I would just shake my head every time I got it out of the case and gave it a strum, couldn't believe how good it sounded.

And the scary thing is, they just get better with age

KY

 

[devellis]

Man, that top is one good lookin' slab of spruce. The whole thing looks great, actually.

 

[chazmo]

I'm really bonding with "Connie." Spent about an hour with her last night. This guitar makes me remember why I never felt like I was missing anything growing up with (and loving) mahogany guitars my whole life.

Connie's sound is really big, like the -512 in some ways, believe it or not... Sustain goes on forever! You bang out cowboy chords and you feel it in your chest big time! In fact it's much richer with overtones than I expected. Still, it's a drier, brighter sound than the -512 while still keeping an enormous bass presence. Not tight at all, mind you -- just really well-balanced (tone) and just the right amount of chime in the mid-range courses!

Early indication to me right now I think Guild has hit this one out of the park, guys. It is honestly blowing me away. I hope to try someone's earlier F-212XL to do a comparo some day.

 

[Brad Little]

I hope to try someone's earlier F-212XL to do a comparo some day.

Not an XL, but if we ever have a northeast get together, I'll bring along my '64 212.
Brad

 

[chazmo]

Uploading some more pix right now to photobucket, including some with the TRC off. I fiddled around a little with that today, and yeah... the dual-action rod does work.

 

[charliea]

I've got a question for you, Chazmo. How high above the guitar top is your center string? I'm curious to know about new guitar setups. The new 512, with it's action set at 3/32, has midway between 7/16 and 1/2 from the top to the middle string. My two 412's, both with shaved bridges, have 1/16 less: midway between 3/8 and 7/16. How about the XL?

 

[chazmo]

I've got a question for you, Chazmo. How high above the guitar top is your center string? I'm curious to know about new guitar setups. The new 512, with it's action set at 3/32, has midway between 7/16 and 1/2 from the top to the middle string. My two 412's, both with shaved bridges, have 1/16 less: midway between 3/8 and 7/16. How about the XL?

I had to cut my ruler, so my measurement is really within 1/32 margin of error, but string #5 is a little higher than 7/16" off the soundboard at the bridge, Charlie. String #2 is 3/8". The saddle is definitely lower on the first course (radiused fretboard, etc.) as you can see from the pix.

In comparison, my Tacoma-era F-512 (pictures after the F-212XL) shows 1/2" for string 5 and 7/16" for string 2. The 512's action is a wee bit high at the moment, and might need a slight saddle shave (there's clearly way more saddle on the 512 anyway!)... I was going to try slight truss-rod adjustment soon to tweak it a little (I did that with the XL this weekend), but I don't think that has any bearing on these measurements, right?

Pix below: First F-212XL then F-512. Final picture is string 2 measurement of F-512 only (forgot to take pic of F-212XL).

Bridge/Saddle looking down from fretboard:

String 5 measurement (string is behind ruler):

String 2 measurement (to avoid interference from pickguard, so ruler is behind the string).

 

[charliea]

That's very interesting. The XL bridge is very similar to the NH 512, while the Tacoma has a much lower rear course of pins, and a higher saddle. I've questioned the conventional wisdom regarding neck resets, at least where 12-strings are concerned. Both of my 412/JF65-12's needed their bridges shaved for string break, but it's apparent that their structures have only "folded" 1/16-1/8 inch, not much for 10+ years of +200lbs of pressure. Like the NH 12's, there just isn't much saddle to work with. Pulling the 512's saddle, I noticed there's a lot of bone and the slot is very deep. Plenty of room to shave and still have adequate support for the saddle. Apparently that's what's contemplated, certainly not resets every 10 years or so.

 

[chazmo]

I think you're right, Charlie. As far as neck resets go, keep in mind that it's probably a combinatin of top deflection (belly) along with the neck block (neck angle) shifting that makes it necessary. I"m no expert, but I would think that shaving the bridge is probably a good sol'n for a little bit of top belly or fingerboard depression (sinking in the upper bout), but probably not to counteract neck angle change after a certain point.

This is definitely an example of "test of time" required to really know if the formula is right in New Hartford for the long haul. I have always heard that Ovation necks have done very well over time (I don't know how factual that is)... If so, we're getting their expertise... And, the good news is that our sample size is increasing here on LTG!

I will say this, given the 212XL and the 512 were both bought new by me, I have the warrantee to cover me in the event that either guitar becomes difficult to play. The 512 is > 4 years old now and shows no sign at all of neck angle shift. I do get moderate deflection due to seasonal humidity changes around here and that leads me to do periodic TR adjustments, but that's it. I may try shaving the saddle down a little on the -512 as I rarely use a pick anymore and clearance is less of an issue.

 

[charliea]

I notice, by the way, that Elderly has a 'burst Tacoma 512 listed for $1,500. Great deal. A month ago, I would already have bought it.

 

[BurstD55]

I also got the truss rod allen wrench and guild baggie with my NH D55.

And about the serial I know it is the # of guitars produced that day but still 001 has a nice ring to it! Off the top of my head mine is NM253002.

 

[chazmo]

Connie.... Good... I like that.

Al, your theory about the neck is interesting and might be right on. A bookmatched neck is almost certainly stronger than a one-piece.

I gotta' go back to Union and look carefully at the other Standards and see if they did the same thing on the 6-strings.

I'll also see if I can ask the Guild guys ... My other thought was simply that this requires narrower boards of mahogany to cut the neck than a one piece...i.e., cost and material savings.

I thought this was interesting... Just saw this one at Elderly, and wha'd'ya' think? Is this bookmatched? Looks different than mine (Connie), although the bookmatching on Connie is much more obvious at the heel than the back of the headstock. The Elderly guitar looks like it might be bookmatched (look at the heel), but the headstock seems to differ. If you look at the grain angle on Connie, it has the right angles all the way from heel to headstock. I guess I'm not sure. Just thought it was interesting:
Elderly:

heel:

compared to Connie:

heel:

 

[Ridgemont]

This is interesting news to me....this whole funny business about multiple piece necks. So what is more desirable in a guitar? A solid piece neck or multiple. It seems that on the higher end Traditional series, they use a walnut strip down the middle of the neck so I assume it is a total of 3 pieces. That looks pretty to me, but it should save cost due to it being multiple pieces. This should be the same thing as a bookmatched neck. So is a solid neck more expensive? Therefore more desirable?

 

[charliea]

My 3-piece necks appear to have been split down the middle, then glued together with a center strip. The joints are invisible. It's a very expensive, labor-intensive process that results in a much stronger, much higher cost, neck.

 

[chazmo]

Man, I love Connie!!

Sorry, just needed to be said!