Newark Street Starfire Pickups

parker_knoll

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that's cool. i was put off buying a T-400 because i felt it was a shortcut to put crappy Korean pickups in an expensive American guitar

however, had i gone i would probably just have had them rewound.

We can't be sure that vintage ones would actually fit in a new model, the sizing may be different
 

SFIV1967

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to put crappy Korean pickups in an expensive American guitar
Why would they be "crappy", I don't get that. So the Apple iPhone is crappy because its made in China??? FMIC used a Korean supplier to copy exactly the original Guild mini humbuckers.

We can't be sure that vintage ones would actually fit in a new model, the sizing may be different
Well, as FMIC gave the Korean company original Guild mini humbuckers I would say they should be size compatible. Should be easy for somebody to measure, so no guesswork.

Ralf
 

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Why would they be "crappy", I don't get that. So the Apple iPhone is crappy because its made in China??? FMIC used a Korean supplier to copy exactly the original Guild mini humbuckers.

Well, as FMIC gave the Korean company original Guild mini humbuckers I would say they should be size compatible. Should be easy for somebody to measure, so no guesswork.

Ralf

I'll get to it after work!
 

SFIV1967

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I'll get to it after work!
I measured the 1967 mini humbuckers from my Starfire IV, so you just need the NS mini humbucker sizes to add.

Neck p/up (no hole in bottom)
Mounting Ring Thickness: 4.0mm
Mounting ring size outside: 91.5mm x 41.7mm
Mounting ring size inside: 71.0mm x 34.0mm
Distance p/up mounting screws: 80mm
Pickup metal cover height (just at the edge): 16.5mm
Pickup metal cover size: 70.7mm x 33.2mm
Pole piece distance high E to Low E center: 47.2mm

Bridge p/up (with hole in bottom)
Mounting Ring Thickness: 8.5mm
Mounting ring size outside: 91.5mm x 41.7mm
Mounting ring size inside: 71.0mm x 34.0mm
Distance p/up mounting screws: 80mm
Pickup metal cover height (just at the edge): 15.9mm
Pickup metal cover size: 70.7mm x 33.2mm
Pole piece distance high E to Low E center: 49.5mm

Ralf
 

Walter Broes

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Why would they be "crappy", I don't get that. So the Apple iPhone is crappy because its made in China??? FMIC used a Korean supplier to copy exactly the original Guild mini humbuckers.
Ralf
Hey Ralf, that's all a little too theoretical.

two things :
- in practice, Chinese and/or Korean guitar pickups really haven't been that great. They work, if the specs of what they're based on are respected they sound close-ish to what they're based on, but I have never encountered one that was great or impressive.

-for what the GSR T-400 cost, it was at the very least a little odd that it came with the same pickups as the (much) cheaper import guitars. I thought it was downright lame, actually. Add to that they based the lead pickup on a broken or unusually low output vintage pickup, and there's no way around the fact that it's just really lame.
Like getting a Custom Shop strat or tele, and finding out it has Squier pickups from the factory. "But they're based on the originals! they're just a coil of wire and some Alnico magnets!".....
 

parker_knoll

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Why would they be "crappy", I don't get that. So the Apple iPhone is crappy because its made in China??? FMIC used a Korean supplier to copy exactly the original Guild mini humbuckers.

Well, as FMIC gave the Korean company original Guild mini humbuckers I would say they should be size compatible. Should be easy for somebody to measure, so no guesswork.

Ralf

as Walter said, generally from Korean guitars you get a high quality on woodwork and a low quality of electronics which you can change to gain greater satisfaction

for an original $5k retail price you might expect to get some specially wound pickups. Fender Custom Shop does not give you the same pickups they put on Squiers or on MIM Fenders etc. etc.
 
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Synchro

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I tend to agree with Ralf on this. The specs on the NS bridge pickup were off base, but I don't feel that the quality of the pickup's construction is in any way wanting. I've changed a lot of pickups in my day and nothing about the NS pickups looked slipshod to my eye. I love the sound of these pickups.
 

parker_knoll

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except, Synchro, you had to do a manual install of a neck bucker into the bridge position to gain satisfaction, so you were not satisfied with the guitar as it came to you

EDIT: and leaving out an earth wire on T-500s is pretty poor

ANYWAY
 
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Synchro

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I tend to agree with Ralf on this. The specs on the NS bridge pickup were off base, but I don't feel that the quality of the pickup's construction is in any way wanting. I've changed a lot of pickups in my day and nothing about the NS pickups looked slipshod to my eye. I love the sound of these pickups.

True, but as I stated, I see this as a design flaw, not a problem in the build quality of the pickup itself. They built, what I consider to be a very worth repro of the original pickup, but for whatever reason, they chose to build a clone of a very weak bridge pickup. The static resistance of the windings for this pickup has been consistent among the three examples I own and the other LTG members have reported similar measurements as well. The pickups sound great, that's why I bought three guitars that have this set of pickups.

I agree completely that leaving the ground wire unconnected was poor form for a guitar in this price range (or any other price range, for that matter) but that's a QC problem, not a pickup problem.
 

parker_knoll

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i don't disagree with you. my own perspective was that knowing vintage Guilds i was a bit underwhelmed with the sound of the NS series when i tried them in the shop although impressed with the playability and quality of build. Based on a number of years I now have an expectation that I will have to rev up the electronics of a Far East made guitar a bit. However, I would not expect that of a premium price US guitar and I would honestly kind of expect the pickups to be made in the US as well since they are so key to the sound. In the end I went vintage with this purchase, despite the effort it's cost me (see other threads) .
 

SFIV1967

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Hey Ralf, that's all a little too theoretical.
Walter, I know, but I just wanted to say that saying they are "crappy" just because they are not made in USA but made by a Korean FMIC approved supplier is a bit unfair towards that Korean supplier. It wasn't the Korean suppliers fault after all that FMIC (the US based company) screwed up by giving them a dead pickup to reproduce...I just looked in the latest Italian Euro pricelist from March 2015 for the LB-1 versions, Guild still shows the bridge p/up with with 5.06kohms and the neck p/up with 7.02kohms...I just hope they fixed that bridge p/up by now...

And I think we discussed another thing many times. An original spec'ed for the magnets of the 60ies pickup would be different today 50 years later...The magnets lost some of their power after 50 years already. So a brand new 2015 made mini humbucker with Alnico 5 would sound different from a 50 year old Guild mini humbucker...Freeze the sound and compare them in another 50 years...Well not us...

Ralf
 
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Synchro

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Walter, I know, but I just wanted to say that saying they are "crappy" just because they are not made in USA but made by a Korean FMIC approved supplier is a bit unfair towards that Korean supplier. It wasn't the Korean suppliers fault after all that FMIC (the US based company) screwed up by giving them a dead pickup to reproduce...I just looked in the latest Italian Euro pricelist from March 2015 for the LB-1 versions, Guild still shows the bridge p/up with with 5.06kohms and the neck p/up with 7.02kohms...I just hope they fixed that bridge p/up by now...

And I think we discussed another thing many times. An original spec'ed for the magnets of the 60ies pickup would be different today 50 years later...The magnets lost some of their power after 50 years already. So a brand new 2015 made mini humbucker with Alnico 5 would sound different from a 50 year old Guild mini humbucker...Freeze the sound and compare them in another 50 years...Well not us...

Ralf

Good points, Ralf. Products produced overseas are by no means uniformly good or bad based upon country of manufacture. The companies ordering and importing these products from these offshore manufacturers are ultimately responsible for quality control. I know of a fellow that house brands some Chinese made archtop guitars that are excellent. He is closely involved in the process, from start to finish, and the luthier(s) involved know what is expected. The guitar is quite similar to a vintage Johnny Smith and sounds every bit as good as a Smith model . . . but that's because the importer is demanding that degree of quality and is paying for that level of quality. The result is a very nice acoustic archtop with a floating pickup in the sub $5,000 price range.

The Korean Guilds strike me as worthy instruments. I play my NS Starfire III, probably, more often than any other guitar in my collection. It's an excellent instrument and I like it for what it is. I'm not about to argue its merits against a vintage example; I'm satisfied with the guitar as is. I'm not surprised that a Korean instrument spec'd by FMIC would be satisfactory, the Electromatic Gretsch guitars built in Korea are of fine quality, playability and sound.

As regards my T-400, I'm ambivalent regarding the country of origin of the pickups. If they sound good to my ear, I couldn't care less if they were made on the east coast of the U.S, South Korea or the South Pole. I love the sound of the T-400, now that I have a higher output pickup in the bridge position.

Why in the hell FMIC chose to specify such a weak pickup is beyond me, but they obviously did and it strikes me as a very poor choice on their part. Whether CMG addresses it or not remains to be seen. I've spoken to them directly, as have others from LTG, but as of this time, they seem to be doubling-down on that choice. As long as the cost of a neck pickup remains reasonable, we at least have an avenue of recourse. I hope that CMG comes to its senses on this, but frankly, $70 for a replacement pickup isn't going to kill me, and considering that I already have bought my guitars it's the only solution available to me. On my NS models it seems to be less of a problem than it was on the T-400, so I don't know if I'll ever make that swap on the Capri or the Starfire III.
 

SFIV1967

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Why in the hell FMIC chose to specify such a weak pickup is beyond me, ...
It was a simply mistake as I understood, FMIC purchased on ebay a few vintage Guilds and sent them to Korea to copy as good as possible. Now by chance one of them had a dead bridge pickup and that is what was copied and nobody at FMIC ever questioned it! Until LTG members noticed and started to complain! Guild had told Steve (?) that they are going to change it after they found out about that error and the new changed spec bridge pickups were supposed to be available by now, but who knows...
As you might know we also complained about the NS S-100 using mini humbuckers (as a few very rare vintage S-100 models used actually!) and Guild changed the S-100 to full sized HB-1 copies! (But they show now on their Facebook page a mini humbucker equipped S-100 and tout the pickups as full sized HB-1...) Well details...
It's not like they don't read what we write here!
Ralf
 

Walter Broes

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And I think we discussed another thing many times. An original spec'ed for the magnets of the 60ies pickup would be different today 50 years later...The magnets lost some of their power after 50 years already. So a brand new 2015 made mini humbucker with Alnico 5 would sound different from a 50 year old Guild mini humbucker...Freeze the sound and compare them in another 50 years...Well not us...

Ralf
Not really my point or the point IMO. Let me say first that I think that at the price point they sell for, I think the NS guitars are fantastic. I only sold mine because I could use the money at the time, and I found I wasn't playing it much - I basically kept on playing my old Guilds. I'll likely get another NS 175 at some point, I loved the neck on the one I had.

But the NS guitars are made to a price point. At that price point, I was really glad to get a great playing guitar with a "traditional" Guild three piece neck, no grafted on headstock, great fretwork, etc... The fact I had to get the pickups rewound to get closer to what I'm used to getting from my vintage Guilds, and that after less than half a year one of the volume pots was noisy when turned, I could totally live with at that price point : decent pots are cheap, and so is getting a pickup rewound. In other words, I feel FMIC made the right choices on where to save some money.

But honestly, if I could have afforded and wanted one of those American Patriarch X500's, and I'd found the exact same Korean pickups under the hood, I wouldn't have been too thrilled. As I said above, that's where the custom shop/squier comparison comes in. Imagine buying a Custom Shop Gibson "Historic" Les Paul, and finding Epiphone stickers on the pickup baseplates. I don't think they could get away with that long.
 

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First post but not a Guild newbie, so I'll jump right in. I love the Franz-ish pickups in my NS Aristocrat. (I love everything about that guitar actually.) Whether they're made in the US or Europe or Asia or whatever…don't care. They're bright & strong, but not too strong. Just right in this particular guitar for me.

As for the repro "anti hum" pickups…in my experience with various 1960s guitars the specs for both the neck and bridge p'ups are unusual. 5KOhms DC resistance is on the low side, but then again 7KOhms is on the high side. Like other pickups of the era they do vary…nearly all examples I've had the chance to measure have been in the 5.2–6.7KOhm range. My own Bluesbird's p'ups are both 5.25KOhms, and in this guitar they sound fab. What I haven't seen are many guitars where the two p'ups vary much from each other. The possible use of differing wire gauges complicates things, but I suspect it's rare to encounter this in a single guitar. Which makes the bridge pickup used as the basis for the Newark St. bridge p'up reissue perhaps an outlier but almost surely not "dead" or "defective" or "broken." Or maybe it's the neck p'up that's the outlier. :smilet-digitalpoint

-Dave-
 

parker_knoll

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if I'm brutally honest I haven't been crazy about the bridge mini hums in my vintage Guilds either. I think that pickup works best in the neck position. In the neck it sounds like a piece of wood, which is a good thing in my book. In the bridge they can be pretty squashed sounding.

But that's probably sacrilege :)
 

Synchro

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It was a simply mistake as I understood, FMIC purchased on ebay a few vintage Guilds and sent them to Korea to copy as good as possible. Now by chance one of them had a dead bridge pickup and that is what was copied and nobody at FMIC ever questioned it! Until LTG members noticed and started to complain! Guild had told Steve (?) that they are going to change it after they found out about that error and the new changed spec bridge pickups were supposed to be available by now, but who knows...
As you might know we also complained about the NS S-100 using mini humbuckers (as a few very rare vintage S-100 models used actually!) and Guild changed the S-100 to full sized HB-1 copies! (But they show now on their Facebook page a mini humbucker equipped S-100 and tout the pickups as full sized HB-1...) Well details...
It's not like they don't read what we write here!
Ralf

My guesstimate, is that they went with the sweetest sounding example and no one bothered to check to see if the output was balanced in situ. It's an understandable mistake, given the vagaries of reverse engineering vintage guitars. FWIW, the pickup I took out go the bridge position of my T-400 did not seem structurally identical to the NS pickup. The tabs were tapered on the GSR pickup, but not on the NS pickup. The static resistance of the windings was, however, identical.

In any event, good, bad or otherwise, those mini-humbuckers are the reason I bought a Guild in the first place. I play Gretsch guitars most of the time and love the Filtertron sound. The Guild minis are different from the Filtertron sound, but they don't sound like Gibson-buckers either; and I like that.

The T-400 has been a bit of a wallflower up until now, because of the pickup balance problem, but the test play I gave it a few days ago revealed a guitar that I found very pleasing . . . and well worth the price. It sounds great for Jazz, which is very important to me. The T-400 is taking the place of the Byrdland I always dreamed of owning. It sounds the part of a serious Jazz axe when it's on the neck pickup. The more favorable balance between the neck and bridge pickups makes for a very pleasing sound with both pickups selected and the bridge pickup alone, at this point, sounds powerful and very bright, without being harsh. I wish that the guitar had come with a set of pickups that were more balanced, but it didn't. In the context of my guitar ownership, this is hardly a speed bump. The Gibson Johnny Smith I used to own was a P.I.T.A. compared to the T-400, and didn't sound any better to my ear.

So, at this point I have a very nice axe with a natural finish, a very nice carved top and it's both comfortable and lightweight. I couldn't be more satisfied. If my ship ever comes in, I'll buy a Wes model L-5, but I ain't holding my breath. In the meantime, the T-400 will do any and every-thing I could desire.

if I'm brutally honest I haven't been crazy about the bridge mini hums in my vintage Guilds either. I think that pickup works best in the neck position. In the neck it sounds like a piece of wood, which is a good thing in my book. In the bridge they can be pretty squashed sounding.

But that's probably sacrilege :)
I appreciate your honesty. Without access to several vintage Guilds from which to glean information, it's all but impossible for me to even form an opinion on the mini hums in vintage Guilds, but I'm certain that there was a degree of variation between production instruments. If I ever come across a true vintage Starfire III, you can wager that I'll give it a good test play.

For the time being, using a neck pickup in the bridge position seems to be the best solution.
 

parker_knoll

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ah damn, you're making me want a T-400 now

lots of lovely maple in that, makes it nice and bright
 

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No, the pickups sent to Korea were simply purchased from eBay and unchecked in any manner. When the guys at NH were putting the M-75s together, they couldn't understand why the guitar sounded so bad in the lead position, as they were newly built pups. You want to know why nobody even played through them, ask the guy Fender hired away from Gibson.

I'm not speculating idly, I know people involved with this fiasco.
 
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