New model: Newark Street Bluesbird solid body/ chambered with SD pickups

[Tiki295]

Very nice. But... it doesn't look like a Bluesbird.

Agreed.

 

[matsickma]

The reissued "Aristocrats" of 1967 to early '70's were called M75 Bluesbirds. Early ones were fully hollow. By early 1970's Guild started to add blocks if wood to the guitar to have it be less feedback prone like a solidbody. Eventually they abandoned the concept and around 1973 or 74 they made the solidbody M75. I think at that time the "Bluesbird" name went away. In the mid 1980 with George Grunn advising Guild the came out with the chambered body of Nightbird as a modern twist on the Guild M75 Aristocrat and Bluesbird. In the 1990 Guild took the general shape and chambered body of a Nightbird and released a less expensive "Nightbird" under the "Bluesbird" name. So it really depends what version of Bluesbird the new NS Guilds are being compared to. The new NS Bluesbird been traditional Guild chambered technology into their new M75.

 

[adorshki]

The reissued "Aristocrats" of 1967 to early '70's were called M75 Bluesbirds. Early ones were fully hollow. By early 1970's Guild started to add blocks if wood to the guitar to have it be less feedback prone like a solidbody. Eventually they abandoned the concept and around 1973 or 74 they made the solidbody M75. I think at that time the "Bluesbird" name went away. In the mid 1980 with George Grunn advising Guild the came out with the chambered body of Nightbird as a modern twist on the Guild M75 Aristocrat and Bluesbird. In the 1990 Guild took the general shape and chambered body of a Nightbird and released a less expensive "Nightbird" under the "Bluesbird" name. So it really depends what version of Bluesbird the new NS Guilds are being compared to.
The new NS Bluesbird been traditional Guild chambered technology into their new M75.

Thanks, nice recap.
Only question on that last phrase, should "been" be "brings", an autocorrect glitch, maybe?

 

[jcwu]

Thanks, nice recap.
Only question on that last phrase, should "been" be "brings", an autocorrect glitch, maybe?

Maybe he meant "beans"

 

[Tom West]

So are the reissue HB1s a smaller size so that they will fit in a regular (i.e. Gibson sized) HB rout?

I assume they are the same size as the Seymour Duncan "SD1" and the Fender manufactured HB1.

 

[matsickma]

Yep. Auto correction glitch. "Brings" was the intended word.

 

[JohnW63]

Bluesbird or not, I would definitively pick one up and try to play it !

 

[Zelja]

This is the story from Guild:

"The Starfire’s LB-1 Little Bucker pickup sits somewhere between a mini-bucker and a full size humbucker. Tonally, it’s got a little more jangle and a little more air then a traditional humbucker. The resistance and inductance of these pickups sit comfortably between a typical single coil and a typical PAF style humbucker – contributing to the airy nature of the pickup without compromising its warmth and hum-free output.

"Recently, we’ve been asked why our Starfire pickups have a lower resistance measurement in the bridge pickup than measures in the neck pickup. While we understand why this question is asked (because many people use the resistance to measure pickup output), measuring output with resistance alone fails to account for a multitude of impacting factors.

"Guitar pickups can be measured a few different ways: resistance (ohms K), inductance (Henries) and output in millivolts are all typical measurements. While any of these measurements can give you a ball park estimate of your pickup output (when compared to another identical pickup), they don’t tell the whole story. For that, you’d need to compare all three different measurements as well as components used and overall pickup efficiency. For example, the Starfire bridge pickup does have a lower resistance than the neck; however, it is wound with 41g wire. The neck pickup is wound with 42g wire. This difference in component alone will impact the resistance of the pickup. 41g is a thicker wire and as you increase your wire thickness, you decrease the amount of resistance.

"It’s easy to fall into the trap of specs and speculations but in the end, you should always count on your ear because after all, it’s our ears which we are trying to please!"

Of course, this does not address why the pickups measure so differently to most everyone's vintage mini-HBs that has bothered to measure them.

I have seen this spiel before & unfortunately don't buy it for a minute! Can Guild publish the inductance specs of the pickups as that will tell us a lot more regarding the relative output & voicing of the pickups? It will be one of the first things I will do when I get myself a Thunderbird reissue.

 

[Zelja]

Mash-up is more accurate. I think it looks weird. The old shape with the new electronics? I would have greatly preferred the new shape with the old electronics!

The old shape needs the pick guard to look right IMO. I love flamed tops, and I love a nice sunburst, but that new guitar just looks off.

Yeah agree. I find the Nightbird/90s Bluesbird & the smaller M-75/Aristocrat shapes far more elegant. The early 70s M-75 is not a pretty guitar but it sort of looks pugnacious ("I'm not pretty & I don't care 'cause I can do the business honey, wink, wink...") so I'll give it a pass. Pickups are not what I would go for either but many others will. I'm sure it's a fine guitar but not to my taste.

Oops, two negative posts in a row. Time to move away from the keyboard...

 

[Smitch]

Eye and ear of beholder of course, but to me, the George Gruhn designed body shape for Nightbird/Bluesbird is an under appreciated and contemporary LP style like nothing else out there.

 

[Quantum Strummer]

I have seen this spiel before & unfortunately don't buy it for a minute! Can Guild publish the inductance specs of the pickups as that will tell us a lot more regarding the relative output & voicing of the pickups? It will be one of the first things I will do when I get myself a Thunderbird reissue.

The part about the wire thickness is true enough. The thinner the wire the less of it you need for a given amount of resistance. What this tells you about the sound of a pickup is another matter.

Without taking apart my Bluesbird's pickups (won't be doing that unless one of 'em stops working) I can't say why they're both ~5KOhms in DC resistance. Could be fewer turns of 42 gauge wire or a more typical number of turns but with 41 gauge. My guess is the latter. I'll also guess that Guild's coil winder wasn't that fussy about the gauge so long as it was "in the ballpark," thus leading to the known variances in DC resistance readings. There are manufacturer gauge tolerances to consider as well.

-Dave-

 

[Zelja]

The part about the wire thickness is true enough. The thinner the wire the less of it you need for a given amount of resistance. What this tells you about the sound of a pickup is another matter.

I have actually tried to do the maths before - from this thread: http://letstalkguild.com/ltg/showth...&highlight=pickup+turns+inductance+resistance

I'd also still like to know if anyone has actually spec'd the "mini-buckers" aside from taking DC resistance measurements. For instance, are both pickups wound with the same gauge wire? If not you can basically forget the DC resistance numbers since you're no longer comparing like with like.

Yep, what is a far better indicator is the inductance of a pickup, which is a function of a number of things but mostly the number of turns of wire around the coils, magnet strength & also other materials (base plate, type of screws/slugs etc.)

According to Guild, the neck pickup is 42 ga. wire, while the bridge pickup is 41 ga. (http://guildguitars.com/a-deeper-look-at-the-starfire-pickup/)

So, from the the resistivity found on this site: http://amasci.com/tesla/wire1.html

Neck pickup = 7.2 k, 42 gauge wire which is 1659 Ohms per 1000 feet, therefore length of cable = 4340 feet (7200/1659 x 1000)

Bridge pickup = 5.06 k, 41 gauge wire which is 1323 Ohms per 1000 feet, therefore length of cable = 3825 feet (5060/1323 x 1000)

So the wire on the neck pickup is still about 13% longer than the wire on the bridge pickup. If bobbin size is equal (which we would assume it is, or pretty close to it) you would still get a fair amount more turns on the neck pickup. Assuming all other construction & magnets are the same on bridge & neck, that still means the neck is a higher output pickup than the bridge, when ideally the opposite would be true.

If someone would like to check my maths/logic above.


Very few pickup makers provide inductance spec for their pickups. Bill Lawrence used to (& the company probably still does) and that spec was the cornerstone of judging & matching pickups.

TV Jones also does: http://tvjones.com/pickups-2/compare-all/

Look how the bridge pickup always has a larger inductance than the associated neck pickup.

Look also at the Classic Plus & Powertron bridge pickups - both have a DC resistance of 7.8k but the inductance for the pickups is 3.71H & 5.94H respectively. I have both of these pickups and tried each of them in two different guitars. The difference is marked with the lower inductance Classic Plus having far more sparkle & being brighter while the Powertron is creamier, more mids, drives an amp harder. Both fabulous pickups BTW.

 

[adorshki]

If someone would like to check my maths/logic above.

Without actually doing it, I believe you've got it.
But as you realize, it's only "correct" if bobbins and magnets, especially the magnets, are the same.
Even though it seems sensible to assume they are, I've been surprised by little "gotchas" like that too many times to make assumptions any more.

 

[Default]

Or, you just use the mark one eardrum and just listen to the darned things.

 

[adorshki]

Or, you just use the mark one eardrum and just listen to the darned things.

Realizing the humorous intent, and I'm being lazy about going back to reread one of those posts that Zelja linked, but isn't that what started the whole "question" a while back, somebody noticed they didn't sound like they were in the right positions in one of the first NS models?

 

[Quantum Strummer]

Inductance tells you—in & of itself—more about how a pickup will sound than DC resistance does. But, yes, "use your ears" is the best way to go.

I have a pair of '70s Tele bridge pickups, rewound long ago by a local guy. Both were wound at this fellow's suggestion with about the same amount of wire (number of turns) but one using standard 42 gauge wire and the other using 43 gauge (per some early Broadcasters). The former reads a bit under 7KOhms while the latter is just above 9KOhms. Since 42 gauge wire is thicker than 43 gauge, it follows that DC resistance increases with decreased wire diameter. Now the hotter pickup doesn't sound any louder overall to my ears but it is juicier in the high end and not as dynamic. More compressed. I used these p'ups in a Strat for many years—custom pickguard, individual vols & master tone, 43 gauge p'up at the bridge atop a brass plate—but currently they're in my drawer of goodies waiting for a new home. They make a well balanced set volume- and tone-wise.

Anyway, this is why I think the idea of swapping around the LB-1 "neck" and "bridge" pickups is a good one.

Incidentally, when Rickenbacker decided to reissue their toaster pickup c. 1990 they goofed up the spec, resulting in a darker & grittier sound compared to the classic Rickie bite & clarity. (I love these "hot" toasters, but that's another topic.) I don't think Ric has ever come clean about what they got wrong, but I bet it was the ratio of turns to wire gauge. Many, likely most, vintage toasters use 44 gauge wire but some use 42. Wind one with 44 gauge wire, per the reissues, to the # of turns specified for 42 gauge and I bet you'll get that hot sound.

-Dave-

 

[Zelja]

isn't that what started the whole "question" a while back, somebody noticed they didn't sound like they were in the right positions in one of the first NS models?

You got it Al. Just trying to counter the manufacturers spin & explain with some semblance of science why they sound as they (apparently) do.

 

[adorshki]

You got it Al. Just trying to counter the manufacturers spin & explain with some semblance of science why they sound as they (apparently) do.

Yeah I was trying to avoid the whole "inductance theory" nightmare explanation but that's where the possible difference in magnetic cores would have more influence on the inductance even if windings were different, and as a function of that, which frequencies are more readily passed, explaining why it's a better predictor of "tone" and corroborating Q-strummer's story about his custom wound p/u's.
In his case even if cores were identical, it's not just the difference in resistance but number (mass) of windings creating the magnetic field around 'em. THAT's what's shaping frequency pass-through over voltage output range.
Like Q-strummer said, the "hotter" pickup didn't actually sound louder, but it sounded "juicier...more compressed" which I translate as higher freqs at less amps.
So even if wire gauge was same and/or number of windings was identical, just changing magnet size would also affect the field.
When they start difefrent, they're going to create different fields anyway, but changing the magnet size/shape/material would compensate by allowing different frequency pass in the supposedly lower output p/u.
I'd like to think somebody thought that through when designing the pickups but at least a couple of "mark one ears" around hear believe they didn't quite get it right.
Who am I to argue?
I like the sound of single coils on the verge of break-up myself.
An I'm not even a " 'leccie guy".
:friendly_wink:

 

[AcornHouse]

Resistance is futile!

 

[adorshki]

Resistance is futile!

Ohm is where the heart is.