New M-20 owner with a few questons.

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Hello all. I'm not exactly a new member, having joined some years ago when I bought a GAD 30R (since sold). It's been a while though since I posted here, and since I've recently acquired a vintage M-20, I think it's time. Actually, I feel a bit at home since I see a number of names I recognize from the AGF. So, a few questions on my new/old git.

Label says Hoboken, and the serial number is 4xxx5. Is there a registry someplace, or a list, that will help me accurately date this guitar? I know what the seller said, but having some experience with vintage guitars, it's always best to check yourself.

The tuners look brand new, and there's no sign that they've been replaced. Still, I wonder. There are no marks on them to indicate the manufacturer. Anyone know, or have a pic of what the originals ate supposed to look like? They're three on a strip, if that helps.

In any case, they're not good tuners (crappy, actually), and I'm thinking of replacing them. Anybody know if there are modern, good quality replacements that will just drop in? I'll keep the originals of course, for the next person down the line, but I'd really like to replace these while it's in my care (which I expect to be for quite some time). IF they can't be replaced without drilling, I'll just keep the originals (or what I take to be originals) on it.

I'm curious about the finish. It's matt of course, with absolutely no finish checking whatsoever. I had assumed that given it's age it would be nitro, which does have a tendency to check. So did Guild use something else?

The finish goes right over the rosette. Was that a common practice for this guitar, or am I looking at a possible refinish?

I will likely be replacing the bridge, which has been split along the front of the saddle slot and a poor job done of re-gluing it. I also suspect that it may have been shaved. Since the git needs a neck reset, that would be the obvious time to replace the bridge. The bridge material to me looks like rosewood painted black to make it look like ebony. Is that correct? And, does anyone know what the original dimensions of the bridge were (height especially, I can take the footprint from the original, just not sure how tall it should be)?

What material did Guild use for the saddle and nut? The saddle is a replacement, and I suspect the nut may be as well.

Frets are in good condition with little sign of wear, although very short (almost on the fretboard). They're the lowest frets I've ever seen on any acoustic. Is that common for this model? If not, I would guess that they were replaced by an electric player :lol: (or more likely, ground to a nub). Anyone know what the original wire size was on these?

On the up-coming neck-reset, I'm assuming a dovetail neck joint, but really, that's only an assumption on my part, so if anyone knows for sure, it would be appreciated. And if anyone has done a neck reset on one of these and would like to share some information (i.e, things to look out for), that would be great too.

All in all, this little guy needs some TLC, and when done I'll probably have more into it than it's worth on the open market, but I think it's worth it. This is a great sounding guitar with a surprising amount of volume and lots of tonal character and I just love it. The string spacing is not the friendliest for fingerpicking (which I do mostly), but it's a great little rhythm guitar, very percussive. And, I seem to be adjusting to the narrower neck with some work. So, looks like a keeper.

Thanks for any feedback ya'll. It's nice to have a Guild at last.

Dennis
 

hansmoust

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sfden1 said:
It's been a while though since I posted here, and since I've recently acquired a vintage M-20, I think it's time. So, a few questions on my new/old git.

Label says Hoboken, and the serial number is 4xxx5. Is there a registry someplace, or a list, that will help me accurately date this guitar? I know what the seller said, but having some experience with vintage guitars, it's always best to check yourself.
The tuners look brand new, and there's no sign that they've been replaced. Still, I wonder. There are no marks on them to indicate the manufacturer. Anyone know, or have a pic of what the originals ate supposed to look like? They're three on a strip, if that helps.

Hello Dennis,

Posting an incomplete serial number doesn't always allow us to properly date your guitar.
If you're paranoid about somebody doing something bad with the info, better leave out the last 2 digits. Anyway, with the information you're giving ( ser. # 4xxx5 ) the instrument could be a 1965 model or a model from 1970. If the number is lower than # 46000, it would be a guitar from 1965 and in that case it should have Waverly 3-on-a-plate tuners with white plastic buttons, like in this photo:

Waverly.jpg


The photo shows a Guild headstock from the late '50s, so obviously your guitar will not have the same 'Gibsonesque' headstock shape. Also the screws that hold the gears in place will most likely be black, but otherwise they should be the same machines.

I'm curious about the finish. It's matt of course, with absolutely no finish checking whatsoever. I had assumed that given it's age it would be nitro, which does have a tendency to check. So did Guild use something else?

Since I have not seen the guitar, I cannot say anything about the originality of the finish but it should be a matt nitro cellulose finish. M-20s from around 1965 very often have an 'amber' tint to it; looks really nice! I've seen plenty of M-20s from that period that didn't show any 'checking'.

The finish goes right over the rosette. Was that a common practice for this guitar, or am I looking at a possible refinish?

That's how they did it at the time, but it doesn't say anything about whether or not it was refinished.

The bridge material to me looks like rosewood painted black to make it look like ebony.

Bridges from that period are usually Brazilian rosewood, which can be almost black. Usually it will have some lighter streaks though, so if it's all black it was probably stained.

That's it for the dating and originality stuff.

Sincerely,

Hans Moust
http://www.guitarsgalore.nl
 
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Thanks very much for the response Hans, much appreciated. The serial no. is 41935, so 1965 then. And the machines look exactly like your photo. I'm very surprised these are Waverly's since they're hard to tune. but it may be that the strings are binding in the nut slots, so a little investigation is in order.

Since I've yet to change the strings, and this is my first all mahogany guitar, I thought I'd ask other owners what their preferences are for strings. I know it's really a matter of personal preference, and trying different strings is the way to go, but it can be useful to have a starting point. The seller's recommendation was D'Addario EJ-16's, which seem to suit it, but if anyone has any other recommendations, I would appreciate it.

Dennis
 

hansmoust

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sfden1 said:
I'm very surprised these are Waverly's since they're hard to tune.

These days people tend to think of high quality machine heads when they hear the brand name Waverly. The company that makes the current Waverly machineheads has no connection with the company that made the guitar hardware you find on Guilds from the '50s and '60s.

Sincerely,

Hans Moust
http://www.guitarsgalore.nl
 

chazmo

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Welcome to LTG, Dennis. Good to see you (back) over here!

Post some pictures of your M-20 sometime when you have a chance.
 
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Thanks for the welcome Chaz. I haven't had the chance to take pictures yet, but hope to get to it this week.

Dennis
 

Ian

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Hi Dennis,

Welcome along from New Zealand and a fellow '65 M20 owner. I use EJ26's on mine, which they call custom lights. No finish checking on mine and the tuners are as described. Try a bit of Margarine on the gears if they are stiff, I did on mine. (still stiff but better)

Cheers, Ian
 
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Thanks for the welcome Ian. Hmmm, butter on the gears, I wonder why I didn't think of that. :lol: Seriously, when I restring it, I'll put a bit of graphite in the nut slots, and maybe dis-assemble the tuners and clean them up as well. We'll see. Thanks for the string recommendation, can't say I've ever heard of those, sounds like they're worth checking out.

It's a very cool little guitar, isn't it. Do you fingerpick yours, and what music do you like using it for? To me, so far, it's a great little strummer, projects well, nice in a small combo or as a solo instrument. What do you think? I'm finding it has a great tone for blues, but the string spacing is forcing me to to really work at my technique to get what I want out of it. Not a bad thing, except that I tend to be lazy.

D.
 

Ian

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Hi Dennis,

In terms of lubricants for the gears, Margarine was what I had available, either that or grease ofrom the grease gun. Ideally I suppose a silicone grease would be the deal, but I didnt have any about....

I dont fingerpick, I'm not really much cop as a player at all really, I use mine for sitting on the front porch in the sun and strumming a few tunes. Seems to like bluesy folky stuff, but maybe thats just a combination of the sunshine and mellowness....

I can see why Nick Drake liked his, I reckon that it would be the perfect guitar to have sitting on your lap while you were writing a song. (nope I cant do that either...)

Cheers, Ian
 

jgmaute

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Welcome, or welcome back. Ian got his M-20 from me. I used D'Addario EJ15s on it You can compare the EJ15s and EJ26s below, both are phosphor bronze and both are lighter than the EJ16s. When I got the guitar (from the original owner) it needed a neck reset. Fortunately my local luthier, Randy Wood, was able to get it fixed with a heat reset. It's a great guitar, unfortunately for me I was never able to get comfortable playing it and it wasn't fair to have it and not play it so at least it stayed in the LTG family. It's nice to know yours has landed in the hands of someone who will restore it to its former glory! joan

EJ15
Diameter Tension
Item# Note inches mm lbs kg
PL010 E 0.010 0.25 16.2 7.35
PL014 B 0.014 0.36 17.8 8.07
PB023 G 0.023 0.58 27.9 12.65
PB030 D 0.030 0.76 27.1 12.29
PB039 A 0.039 0.99 25.4 11.52
PB047 E 0.047 1.19 20.7 9.39

EJ26
Diameter Tension
Item# Note inches mm lbs kg
PL011 E 0.011 0.28 19.6 8.89
PL015 B 0.015 0.38 20.5 9.30
PB022 G 0.022 0.56 25.5 11.56
PB032 D 0.032 0.81 30.5 13.83
PB042 A 0.042 1.07 29.9 13.56
PB052 E 0.052 1.32 25.2 11.43
 

chazmo

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When I spoke to the folks at Stewart-McDonald a few years ago about their Waverly tuners, the CS rep suggested Vaseline for the gears. Seems to me any form of gear lube would be just fine as long as it doesn't cause any trouble with the guitar finish.
 

GuildFS4612CE

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Slight veer but still musically related:

Early in the last century, 'white grease', or petroleum jelly, aka 'vaseline', was the mfr recommended substance for greasing the worm gears on the Victor hand crank Victrola talking machines... :wink:
 
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