New 1973 Guild D25 - some questions

[dmw]

I just picked up a 1973 Guild D25 off ebay. It arrived yesterday. Great guitar, but not perfect. It has a flat back and what I assum is mahogany top. Got it for a good price. I replaced the strings and it sounds great. The good: no cracks, finish is in excellent condition (except for serious buckle rash on the back), action is low, easy to play. The bad: serious buckle rash on the back, the bridge is starting to lift, and the first few frets are pretty worn. The high e string buzzes sometimes when the string is in just the right/wrong place. Here are my questions - how much will it cost to fix the bridge and frets? Do that now or can it wait? I can return it within 7 days. Is this a keeper? The buzz isn't too bad and is the only thing negative jumping out at me right now. This guitar has been played!

I would attach pictures but don't know how to.

 

[MojoTooth]

I just picked up a 1973 Guild D25 off ebay. It arrived yesterday. Great guitar, but not perfect. It has a flat back and what I assum is mahogany top. Got it for a good price. I replaced the strings and it sounds great. The good: no cracks, finish is in excellent condition (except for serious buckle rash on the back), action is low, easy to play. The bad: serious buckle rash on the back, the bridge is starting to lift, and the first few frets are pretty worn. The high e string buzzes sometimes when the string is in just the right/wrong place. Here are my questions - how much will it cost to fix the bridge and frets? Do that now or can it wait? I can return it within 7 days. Is this a keeper? The buzz isn't too bad and is the only thing negative jumping out at me right now. This guitar has been played!

I would attach pictures but don't know how to.

was any of this mentioned in the listing? if not i would by all means send it back or ask for a partial refund. if he didn't mention any of it, cleverly left it out of the listing or gave you less than honest answers to your questions then it is on him as a seller not you as a buyer. but that is just me, i ask a million questions first to cover all my bases.

 

[adorshki]

I just picked up a 1973 Guild D25 off ebay. It arrived yesterday. Great guitar, but not perfect. It has a flat back and what I assum is mahogany top. Got it for a good price. I replaced the strings and it sounds great. The good: no cracks, finish is in excellent condition (except for serious buckle rash on the back), action is low, easy to play. The bad: serious buckle rash on the back, the bridge is starting to lift, and the first few frets are pretty worn. The high e string buzzes sometimes when the string is in just the right/wrong place. Here are my questions - how much will it cost to fix the bridge and frets? Do that now or can it wait? I can return it within 7 days. Is this a keeper? The buzz isn't too bad and is the only thing negative jumping out at me right now. This guitar has been played!

Take it to a luthier. How bad is the bridge lift? Some Guilds suffered from a too small gluespot where the bridge was mounted creating the impression of lift, but this shouldn't be more gap that a piece of copier paper slipped under the lifting area, and that shouldn't be more than a 1/8 to 3/16" deep. A bridge re-set is $200.00 easy in metropolitan California. A COMPLETE refret is $250.00 easy but ensures you wind up with fret height that assures proper intonation and no buzzing. Personally I don't believe in "flattening frets" or doing partial replacements, it's just a cheap stopgap. The real thing to look for is neck angle. If you hold a straightedge like a ruler on the fretboard, the line it makes should touch the top of the bridge. If it's below the top of the bridge that's a problem, maybe a big problem. Saddle height is also important. Some guys like to shave their saddles down to lower the action but it reduces volume if over-done. Sometimes the bridge and saddle are shaved down when the guitar needs a neck reset.
Don't know you well enough to know if this info is already known to you, otherwise it's a good capsule intro on what to look for. If you think it sounds good now, imagine how much better it would be if it was in top playable condition. If the neck angle's ok the other stuff might be worth spending the money on. Good luck! :wink:

 

[dmw]

Hopefully this will work to add pictures. The buzz was mentioned in the listing. It's not that bad. I could put $100 into the guitar and still be ahead given what I paid.

 

[dmw]

Maybe this link will work for pictures.

http://picasaweb.google.com/10261719207 ... 6412173458

A ruler placed along the frets falls about 1/16 inch below the top of the bridge, which is about the same as my fairly new Alvarez MD80 and so the neck doesn't seem too far out of whack.

 

[adorshki]

Hard to tell from the pics but it looks like someone might have already tried to inject some glue under the bridge, is there a bit of it oozed out on the edges? The frets aren't even "flattenable", those notches are too deep and might be the real cause of buzzing where the string hits higher frets 'cause those divots are so deep. I have been quoted $20.00/fret for individual replacements, if it's simply a matter of what you can afford now. The saddle does look like it's been shaved down but again the resolution on that pic is kinda poor.
The whole neck angle thing has many inter-related issues, but I don't believe that indicated angle is a good starting place. To get the best playability one wants that alignment spot-on because all of the rest of the setup follows from that initial relationship. Assuming the neck is straight, the height of the saddle determines how high the strings are going to be from the tops of the frets, and that's going to dermine how low you can get the strings without buzz but still get good volume and ease of playing. What's called the "action."
I should have pointed out that the checking of the neck angle should be done after one has verified the neck is straight, which is adjustable with the truss rod.
Here's some more detailed explanations of the subject:
http://www.frets.com/FRETSpages/Musicia ... ion01.html

 

[taabru45]

My F50R had a little buzzing on the high E...My luthier just slotted the hole a bit to incerase the angle, the saddle was pretty low, its a 77 still no need for any other action repairs, what a guitar...Guild does it right...If you like the sound of it....its not that big a deal to have the minor fixes done....Steffan

 

[southernGuild]

Great advice there Al, and Tabbs.........and this sounds like a fine guitar, Stick with her and you shall be rewarded. REPEATEDLY...I absolutely LOVE my '77 D25, and she was resurected with a reset neck. ..........worth EVERY hard earned dollar too!
Save the Guilds!!!

 

[dmw]

Thanks for all the replies.

I shot a couple of emails with pictures to my local luthier to see what it might cost to fix this. Playing it last night I also realized that the D string goes out of tune (it has original tuners). So it looks like I need to replace the tuners as well. What tuners should I get? Grovers? I assume replacing the tuners isn't too difficult.

By the way, the action is nice and low and it plays well. I put a straight edge along the frets and it came about 1/16 of an inch below the top of the bridge (which is where my new Alvarez hits as well).

I know that the 1973 D25's with flat backs are somewhat rare. Does that make them any more or less desireable? To their credit, the ebay seller will take the guitar back and refund shipping within 7 days. I need to decide soon whether I'm keeping it and fixing it or returning it.

 

[GardMan]

DMW,
To me, it looks as if you need to have the bridge pulled off and reglued (<$100 here in SLC) and some fretwork done. You might have enough fret left to have them leveled, crowned and polished... it's hard to tell from the pics. If not, a full re-fret could cost ~$250... or a partial refret would save you money in the short run (perhaps not in the long run). You would then probably need to replace the nut and saddle as well (another ~$100). As for the neck angle... it's a bit hard to tell, but the pics suggest that the break angle over the saddle is getting to be borderline. On the otherhand, a good setup of the truss, nut height, and saddle height might gain you some saddle (hard to say) and keep it quite playable. Ramping the pin holes for the strings might help put off a neck reset for quite a few more years.

Although flat-backed D-25s are a bit more "rare" than their arched back sisters, they still show up relatively frequently, and one in VG-E condition might sell anywhere from $500 to $800. I'd definitely talk options with your luthier, and then weight the repair cost with the price you paid against how she sounds and feels to you when making your decision.
Dave

 

[dmw]

This has been very helpful. I contacted a good luthier and he said the bridge is probably $75 and refretting up to the 6th fret would be around $125 ($225 for complete fret job). Playing the guitar last night, I also noticed the tuner for the D string is bad and won't stay in tune. Ebay has a set of Grover tuners for $40 (which I assume I can do myself). I'm just not comfortable putting another $240 into the guitar (which is more than half of what I paid for it). It plays great and sounds good but I can't honestly say that it sounds better than my Alvarez MD80. Seems like for $600-700 I could get a very nice D25 without these issues.

 

[adorshki]

Seems like for $600-700 I could get a very nice D25 without these issues.

YES. And without those issues it will make your Alvarez run away and hide in the chicken coop. Especially an archback model. Trust us all on this.

 

[Ridgemont]

Returning it is a smart choice. There are plenty around and you will find a good one if you are patient.

 

[southernGuild]

Seems like for $600-700 I could get a very nice D25 without these issues.

:lol: :lol: YES. And without those issues it will make your Alvarez run away and hide in the chicken coop. Especially an archback model. Trust us all on this.

Al, Youre KEEPING ME IN STITCHES!!! :lol: I actually HAVE a chicken coop in my yard..and i can SEE IT ALL HAPPENING!!! :lol: TRUE!!

 

[bluesypicky]

YES. And without those issues it will make your Alvarez run away and hide in the chicken coop. Especially an archback model. Trust us all on this.

True that about the chicken coop hideout, and I would add: because yours is a flat back, the Alvarez might even run farther down the road..... :lol: :lol:
Anyhoo, I would not hesitate for a second to throw a couple hundred bucks in my flattie (a year older than yours) should it need it.....
Save the Guilds!!!!!

 

[dmw]

So am I hearing that I should spend the $$ to fix it up because then I will have a solid guitar with no issues? Or should I send it back and look for a local arch-back D25 that I can actually play before I buy? Decisions, decisions. Your thoughts are much appreciated.

 

[bluesypicky]

It's really up to your ears to answer your questions.
The second I played my 72 flat back at the seller's place, I knew I had to have it. And it was very hard to play with a horrible set up and rusty strings, but once I got home I fixed that, and it remains one of my all time favorites to this day....
The difference between flat back and arched back has been beaten to death here, and it really comes down to the style of music you're into. I had both at one point, and let the arched back go to another good home, as the flattie fits my bill better for finger style blues.
One thing to keep in mind as you seem on the fence here, flat backs are not coming around as often as arched backs, so be sure you want to let it go before you do.....
Good luck with your decision.

Pascal

 

[dreadnut]

Actually, flat backs arent that rare, they were made this way until 1974 or so.

From what I'm reding here, I'd take quick advantage of the 7-day return policy!

 

[Ridgemont]

Returning it is a smart choice. There are plenty around and you will find a good one if you are patient.

I feel a little hypocritical considering that I posted in another thread to fix instead of return/sell because it would be a great guitar once fixed. Bottom line is that it is ultimately up to you. You are lucky that the seller has a return policy and yes there are many D25s on the market so your chances of getting another one are good. Bluesy is right in saying it depends on what type of music you play. If you look at his youtube videos, then yes his all hog D25 is perfect for his style. Personally, I don't think life gets much better than an all hog guitar. I have a new 000-15 that is slowly being worked in and I think it is one of the best guitars for what I like to do. The archbacks (I have one) are great but slightly different in that there is more smoothness due to the spruce top and more projection due to the archback. There is a crapload of bass to the point that the guitar is unbalanced. Some like it for fingerstyle stuff, but often times I default to one of my smaller guitars due to the overwhelming bass. It all depends on what you want. If you think the all hog (overall good condition) D25 you have is the guitar that fits your style, then shelling out a few hundred bucks to make it perfect and almost brand new may not be a bad idea. I am in agreement with Bluesy in that I see more archbacks for sale than all hog flatties. But, then if you think an archback is more your thing, then by all means return it. No matter how you spin it, if you buy before you can play, you will be taking a risk, and this is something to consider if you choose to restart a guitar hunt on Ebay. That is a risk we all take.

 

[TonyT]

Actually, flat backs arent that rare, they were made this way until 1974 or so.

From what I'm reding here, I'd take quick advantage of the 7-day return policy!

+1. Sounds like you're gonna have $600 or so in once it's fixed, and you're still gonna have a neck that's gonna need work sometime. A little patience, and you can get a D25 for that money that doesn't have nearly the issues you have now.