More Tweed

[iismet]

I purchased this one several months ago. It is based off of the 5E3. I did not know anything about Tweeds when I purchased it. I just really liked the sound.

Internally jumpered unlike the original along with other obvious changes. Lot's of Bass (it's roots are 5e3). I run the Normal channel at 2 and the Bright channel at 8.5. with my Starfire.

Came with Russian tubes including a 12AT7 and 12Ax7. The original came with a 12AY7.

Along the way I got to play one of these (57' Deluxe Reissue) with a vintage JBL speaker installed, side by side with mine. I played it for 3 hours and was completely blown away. The Fender was unbelievably responsive. Anyone thinking of one of these - you will not be disappointed. Mine was not even close. Interestingly the reissue comes with 2 12Ax7's and starts breaking up at about 2.5 to 3.

That sent me researching and I ended up installing these components. I swapped all of the tubes with NOS and of course the Blue is legendary. Not correct for a Fender, but oh my! I chose to replace the 12AT7 with a 12AY7 like the original. LEO did not like distortion - he got plenty though. :lol:

What I ended up is very nice - I played a Blues Jam on Saturday and was surprisingly approached about selling it. I play it clean all the time (Master 9 or 10) adjusting the volume on the guitar. At a Jam I have to turn the guitar volume all the way up and then it's voice is all about pick attack and the most beautiful break up. Plenty of clean head room for practice (not really into preamp saturation). It is a very inspiring thing to play. Responsive, articulate, and when it break's up, it's just WOW! Voices the Starfire perfectly.

Long live Tweeds

 

[Default]

I read somewhere that tweed deluxes are one of, if not the, most recorded amps on the planet. Enjoy! :mrgreen:

 

[Bobo]

COOL amp!

 

[capnjuan]

Mighty fine amps!

Tweed spoken at my house too; courtesy of Coastie 8)

Sorry for blowing the margin ... but they crank out incredible tone :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

 

[iismet]

Since I had no experience I was kind of skeptical on the tube swap, but all the builder forums were all over it. I took a leap of faith and bought the entire set. I took them to my amp guy and he looked them over and shook his head yes, so I thought well maybe. I have been playing it about a month now with the Blue and NOS tubes, and it just keeps getting better. Some of that is finding where the guitar is dialed in best to the amp and some of it is getting the attack right. Just so much fun. I had him rewire the external jack and have ordered a tweed extension cabinet from fender. The wiring setup will let me run both speakers at the same time. I am looking forward to trying it.

 

[Jeff Haddad]

I built a 5e3 kit about 10 years ago (can't believe it's been that long!) and got it out of the amp room the other day. I finally spent enough time with it to learn the controls and see how versatile it really is. There's a whole range of cleans to the greatest growl available through different settings on the three knobs and 4 inputs. Of course, it probably wouldn't keep up with a drummer, but at home it really is more flexible than you would think.

 

[Default]

Gibson tweed in all it's raging glory. :wink:

 

[iismet]

Of course, it probably wouldn't keep up with a drummer, but at home it really is more flexible than you would think.

I play Jams with mine. Typically I let them know I only have 15 watts. I use wireless so I am mobile. When I start a song I go to the drummer and start, assuring he can hear my guitar. That usually sets the volume. I am big on trying to keep the volume down so that the incredible tones out of the Starfire can be heard. If the Jam is too loud I don't go back.

I spoke to my teacher about this and he told me Jimmy Vaughn will run a Tube Screamer "clean" into his amp to boost the volume. I have a Tube Screamer I purchased several years ago, but never use, so I took it to a lesson and it definitely boosted the volume.

The Celestion is only a 15 watt speaker.

Can any of you offer opinions on doing this? Am I running a big risk of blowing the Speaker running the Tube Screamer? I have not tried this at a Jam yet, but am considering trying it provided it does not blow up my speaker or ruin the natural tone.

 

[iismet]

Gibson tweed in all it's raging glory. :wink:

I find myself checking Craigs List frequently now for a Gibson. Seems everyone knows what Fenders are worth, but I have played with guy's that have gotten some good deals on their CL Gibsons.

Side Story:

I played a Jam last month and an acquaintance showed up with a 1947 Dual Pro that he had purchased from a girl friend 30 years ago. It has been in a closet all this time. It was her fathers and she sold it to him for $10.00. A friend hauled it to Seattle and had it tuned (tighten chassis and a few other things) and it now plays great. Very cool amp.

 

[capnjuan]

... I have a Tube Screamer I purchased several years ago, but never use, so I took it to a lesson and it definitely boosted the volume ... The Celestion is only a 15 watt speaker ... Can any of you offer opinions on doing this? Am I running a big risk of blowing the Speaker running the Tube Screamer?

Most speaker mfrs build their speakers to withstand as much as twice their rated load but they can't do it for an extended period of time.

An amp's power output is governed by the dc voltage and the operating characteristics of the tubes. The fact that the input / output signals are louder doesn't affect the amp's power output ... it's still only putting out 15 or so watts.

Heat is the enemy of transformers, tubes, passives, and speakers. The more work they do flat out over an extended period, the hotter they get. Using a tube screamer doesn't change much of anything; how long you use your amp dimed controls your risk.

 

[iismet]

An amp's power output is governed by the dc voltage and the operating characteristics of the tubes. The fact that the input / output signals are louder doesn't affect the amp's power output ... it's still only putting out 15 or so watts.

Great thanks

Heat is the enemy of transformers, tubes, passives, and speakers. The more work they do flat out over an extended period, the hotter they get. Using a tube screamer doesn't change much of anything; how long you use your amp dimed controls your risk.

I need to understand this a little bit better with respect to amp component life. Is it creating the same amount of heat with all the amp controls dimed and the guitar controls turned down as amp controls dimed and the guitar controls turned all the way up. I assume from your answer above, it does.

If so, then practicing with the amp dimed, but controlling the volume with pick attack is still wearing the tubes and components faster, regardless of the amplitude of the input signal?

Obviously my "how does an amp work" knowledge is a little on the limited side . I appreciate your help.

 

[capnjuan]

... I need to understand this a little bit better with respect to amp component life. Is it creating the same amount of heat with all the amp controls dimed and the guitar controls turned down as amp controls dimed and the guitar controls turned all the way up. I assume from your answer above, it does.

More heat when the amp controls are dimed, not the guitar controls. The amp doesn't care as much about the strength of the input signal unless it's so loud it just overloads the preamp to the point of mush ... which the amp faithfully amplifies ...

Catastrophic failure usually includes one or more of a tube, the output transformer, and/or the speaker. Although they can fail because of an inherent flaw, most of the time it's from prolonged hard use. Next time you play for a couple of hours or so, put your hand - lightly - on the back of the speaker bell. If you have a 15 watt amp and spend all your play time with the volume full up, then maybe you really need a 30-watt 7591 or a 50-watt 6L6 amp.

I know what you're thinking: 'but the tone Juan ... the tone'. I play farty old Gibson amps with Jensens because I'm addicted to early breakup and I know a thing or two about blue speakers. I fitted this one to member Coastie's Silvertone 1482 ... sorry about the crappy focus:

Replacing it would cost more than a new output transformer and fresh output tubes on your amp. If you love your speaker ... then love your speaker

 

[iismet]

If you have a 15 watt amp and spend all your play time with the volume full up, then maybe you really need a 30-watt 7591 or a 50-watt 6L6 amp. I know what you're thinking: 'but the tone Juan ... the tone'.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Actually - now that I understand how it works, I am going to re-balance the controls for practice and will probably give the TS a try at the next Jam.

I play farty old Gibson amps with Jensens because I'm addicted to early breakup and I know a thing or two about blue speakers.

Replacing it would cost more than a new output transformer and fresh output tubes on your amp. If you love your speaker ... then love your speaker

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Right on Baby!

On the Tube Screamer - Do you think it colors the amp when used as a presence (no gain) control only?

 

[capnjuan]

... On the Tube Screamer - Do you think it colors the amp when used as a presence (no gain) control only?

I haven't had the pleasure with a Tube Screamer but I have a Digitech Bad Monkey - that I stupidly let a friend throw in to balance the scales on a trade - and a Marshall Bluesbreaker II which I like more. The thing is that if you touch the signal, you leave fingerprints on it.

The best example I can think of is coupling capacitors; all they're supposed to do is connect one amp stage to the next one and block DC. Simple enough ... but then how is it that 'cap wars' break out every so often on TGP and other BBs where one guy says, for example, his favorite Mallorys (mine too) are 'transparent' and somebody else says they sound like mud?

If it's arguably possible to influence tone with a passive capacitor, when you start jerking the signal around with op amps and ICs ... well ... it can't help but make a difference. I don't keep up with everything that's out there but I'm not sure they make something that will give you that warm, round, crunchy thing. The cheaper stuff tends to be brittle and harsh although if nothing else, it'll give you some breakup without having to ask too much of the amp.

 

[iismet]

capnjuan - What are your thoughts on components? Do you think Carbon Comp influences that much? I have read where some builders believe they should only be used in specific areas of the amp. Do you have opinions on this? If so what components and where would you place them?

 

[capnjuan]

I'm not sure I can give you a decent answer; in low power amps, I'm okay with carbon comps everywhere but I also don't play out, I don't play especially well, and my agent says he's pretty sure I'm not going to play Shea Stadium. I'm saying that the only place I star is in my own backroom. (member bluesypicky guest starring there):

The problem has two parts; what is the standard of excellence and, to a lesser extent, who can know the mind of Leo?

What is good? Most of the '50s/'60s classic amps ... Fenders, Supros, on and on were loaded with noisy, stuffy old WW2 surplus Allen Bradley carbon composition resistors ... 10%ers at that. By comparison, early Marshalls are loaded with metal film resistors. This is a link to a thread on the Gear Page; a long-running thread celebrating amp interiors; everything from Fenders to boutiques to DIYs. If you page through it, you'll see that even today's better-made amps are all over the place on the question of what resistors to use where: Gear Page link. Your ValveTrain uses carbon film; not good ... not bad ... just making a note.

What would Leo do? Does anybody really think Leo brought all the mfrs in and conducted A/B/C tests of whose parts did the best? Carbon composition resistors have a reputation for noise and grit although some of their trash is subsonic and can only be seen on an oscilloscope. Anality being what it is; there are people who, if they were told there was grunge in the signal and even though they couldn't hear it, would reject the amp.

If you want or prefer the way-back sound, then carbon composition resistors are what you want. If it has to be clean, then the carbon and metal films are the way to go; they are made to tighter standards, are inexpensive and reliable, and do not contribute grit and grunge ... although I like grit and grunge ..

 

[iismet]

This is a link to a thread on the Gear Page; a long-running thread celebrating amp interiors; everything from Fenders to boutiques to DIYs. If you page through it, you'll see that even today's better-made amps are all over the place on the question of what resistors to use where:
Gear Page link.

Have not seen this. Will have to study. Thanks for the link.

Your ValveTrain uses carbon film; not good ... not bad ... just making a note.

Yes - I was wondering what would be gained by any swapping. My amp plays beautifully, but I do not consider it to be quite as responsive as the Fender Re- issue. That said, the re-issue I played did not have enough clean head room to gig with short of micing it, which is rarely possible at the jams I play. I will try to find the link where the tech discusses where to use the old ones.

IYO- Why are Sprague Atom capacitors so desirable?


Edit - Spelling

 

[iismet]

I will try to find the link where the tech discusses where to use the old ones.

Found it -

"So where do they work best? Where can we use CC's for their soft distortion, and where can we sidestep them to lower noise? "

'The place to use CC's is where there's big signal - plate resistors, and ideally the stage just before the phase inverter. The phase inverter would otherwise be ideal, with plate resistors carrying the highest signal voltage in the amp, but phase inverters are often enclosed in a feedback loop. The feedback minimizes the distortion the resistor generates. '

http://www.geofex.com/article_folders/carbon_comp/carboncomp.htm

Thoughts?

Edit - added content.

 

[capnjuan]

Yes - I was wondering what would be gained by any swapping. My amp plays beautifully, but I do not consider it to be quite as responsive as the Fender Re- issue.

At the risk of sounding like the wet blanket I am, I would recommend not fooling with the resistors in the ValveTrain. I don't think passive parts play much of a role in responsiveness ... just guessing, I'd say that has more to do with the bias of the preamp tubes.

Further, assuming you got any benefit at all, it would be at the expense of the authenticity of the amp. If/when you went to sell it, prospective buyers might shy away from it because it'd been messed with. Further, to convince somebody the resistor work was an uptick, you'd need another stock ValveTrain so a buyer could A/B and, like you, conclude the swap was worth it.

IYO- Why are Sprague Atom capacitors so desirable?

For a long time, Spragues were the king of the hill; more expensive and thought to be more reliable. A year or so ago, a gent on the Gear Page cut into one of those oversized blue, aluminum housings and found nothing; okay, there was a capacitor in there but it only took up 30-40% of the total volume.

A Theory In Search Of Some Facts: somebody ... maybe the US Govt spec'd a cap which, if it failed, wouldn't spew corrosive, electrolytic paste into the chassis. Instead, all that additional space acts like an expansion chamber so if/when the cap failed, it would spray its heinous filth into the can and not all over the place. Like I said ... it's a theory; they're relatively expensive but do fit nicely into older Fenders that have 'doghouses' for caps.

Except as noted below, I gave up on the larger Spragues and now use F&Ts that are all over the internet. Made in Germany, same values, smaller package, and smaller price tag. F&Ts retro-fitted into a +/- 1960 Gibson GA20T ... Spragues won't fit:

But I still salute the Sprague 25uf/25V for use as a cathode resistor bypass cap ... wouldn't use anything else: Sprague

Thoughts?

Acknowledging that I prefer junk in my signal, I agree with the article; CCs for mostly for plates ... otherwise something quieter. Like I said, I wonder what Leo would have put in his amps if the US market hadn't been so full of inexpensive, US-made CC resistors. Same for all those blue and brown molded case Sprague signal caps. Your ValveTrain looks like it's using the older series yellow Mallory 150s; if so ....

 

[iismet]

Capn - thanks for taking the time. I'm an acoustic player and a Semi and Tweed have been a natural progression (you can feel it). That said, playing electric presents a lot of learning when you don't get started until your 50's. :wink: